Author Topic: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing  (Read 3945 times)

Foil_Dreamer

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Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« on: December 17, 2023, 02:46:27 PM »
Been pretty intrigued by the concept and then saw this youtube vid:

https://youtu.be/sQErwtP4gpg?si=aGoM-QV1yaSAbe-7

He's using a 4.0 Duotone Unit V3, high aspect foil and a 6'2" 90 liter blackbird downwind board and he weighs 65kg and is very skilled. And he's getting up in almost nothing.

Due to some laziness but more a reluctance to drive the distance to the good beginner spots I am still quite the kook with a foil and wing despite decades of enthusiastic partaking in windsurfing and kiteboarding. But I am determined to make use of the protected launch right down the street in the AM when there's onshores in the 6 to 12 mph range before the chop picks up and broadsides me without enough wind to overcome that nuisance.

So with that info, here is my question - what wing in the 4.0 to 5.0 range would give me, at 82kg, the best shot at lifting up for even a brief ride, using a larger DW board (8'6" 122 liters) and a huge GoFoil 2600 front wing.

Ive been looking at the Unit, the Slick also by Duotone, and the F One Strike (that I might be ruling out due to not having solid handles), and the BRM Cloud. It seems that the regular model Slick has been noted to have more low end grunt than the other versions of that wing and I am assuming the same for the Unit so not looking at the more expensive Alluula models.

I tried pumping up yesterday in 9 mph with a Freewing Go 5.5 but that is clearly not the best design for what I am trying to do. Not asking for what Will work but rather, what Might give me the Best Shot at it so maybe I don't eventually have to make the drive down to kook beach and end up between someone's kite lines and get nailed by a stingray again.

Thanks


StellaBlu

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2023, 06:54:43 AM »
As far as wings with grunt - I find the Ozone Flux to be a very grunty wing for its size.  Ive heard the Armstrong wings are also grunty.  I don't think the FOne wings are known for being particularly grunty.

A couple tips that might help with your success:
1) water surface condition is a huge factor.  As you noted - you need flatter / cleaner surface condition to make this work.  Note I refer to surface condition, waves are OK, as long as its clean.  Chop is bad.
2)  Wave energy and wind energy need to work together.  That doesn't really mean they are both going in the same direction though.  cross shore wind with onshore wave energy is pretty good for this.  You are going to be much more effective aligning your board with the wave energy.
3)  I don't know the GoFoil 2600, but a big foil isn't always the best answer.  You want an efficient foil (low drag / high lift).

PonoBill

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2023, 12:19:31 PM »
A few suggestions--I'm reasonably capable in light wind despite weighing 230 pounds. The keys for me in moderate wind are a big wing, low drag foil, and low drag board, or in very light wind, a huge wing, somewhat draggy foil, and the board drag doesn't matter too much. Those two choices require different techniques.

I use either an F-one 5.5, 6M CWC, or a 7M CWC. The 5.5 is not a CWC (compact wing), and I prefer it for moderate wind (10-15). Under 10, I use the 7M.

I use Axis foils, and in moderate wind, I like either the 999 or Spitfire 1010, both of which are high aspect. In light wind, I use the 1150, which is a moderate-aspect wing and, therefore, quite draggy.

In moderate wind, I use a Kalama-style downwind board (8'4" X 26", I think) and low-drag foil to get up to speed. Since the board and foil are relatively low drag, I don't need a huge wing to reach foil speed. High aspect, low drag foils require speed to get off the water. You can't just shift your weight back and pop them up; you must fly them off the water like a heavily laden airplane. As the board drag drops away, you accelerate quickly, and things stabilize.

In light wind, it's hard to reach foil speed for a high-aspect wing--there isn't much potential for creating apparent wind with board speed and reach angle. You probably need to go almost straight downwind, which means you will be moving slower than the wind speed. I use the 1150, which is draggy and slows me even more, but it's a wing designed to pump, which means it stalls at very low speeds. I don't pump for shit, but the board can be yanked out of the water with torque from the huge wing, and then a few sharp wing pumps, plus my weak foil pumps, keep it going since there isn't any board drag. Not elegant, but it works. Once you're up and flying you can turn into a reach and keep accelerating. In the lulls, raise your back hand a little and the wing tip will move closer to the board and increase the wing efficiency.

I'm unfamiliar with the GoFoil 2600, but from the pictures online, I'd guess it's probably even more draggy than my 1150. It should be OK with a huge hand wing and the second technique, but it won't work well with the moderate wind method.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 12:26:04 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Rider

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2023, 06:54:29 PM »
Pono…..you make it sound so simple.

B-Walnut

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2023, 09:21:40 PM »
For what it's worth, my PR this year on the low end is 5-14 knots with a 4.2m Cloud IX Ho'okipa wing, 5'3x22" kalama e3 and Cloud IX fs1150 foil with 227 stab and 66cm mast. 85kg rider. I, personally, am totally sold on the superfabrics and doub't I'll buy a dacron wing again since we are now entering the age of ho'okipa, dyneema, aluula.

Foil_Dreamer

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2023, 08:46:01 PM »
Some seriously good info above on gear and technique. I'm going to see how the paddle up efforts go with the new board and then make a decision. Right now based on this thread, a bunch of youtube reviews, and some input from Dwight I am leaning Slick 6.5 but this Cloud IX wing in the 6.0 also has my interest and by the time I pull the trigger that one might win out.

Looks like its just them and one other vendor that is using the Ho'okipa material for the leading edge and strut - I am assuming the canopy is dacron but can't find info on it - but it sounds really good and I have not found any negative opinions like with aluula.

One of those wings with with the long skinny board and big foil seems like my best shot to make that light wind technique cited above eventually work for me at my very convenient (but kinda lousy) spot.

Thanks for all the great input!

B-Walnut

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2023, 09:12:03 PM »
Some seriously good info above on gear and technique. I'm going to see how the paddle up efforts go with the new board and then make a decision. Right now based on this thread, a bunch of youtube reviews, and some input from Dwight I am leaning Slick 6.5 but this Cloud IX wing in the 6.0 also has my interest and by the time I pull the trigger that one might win out.

Looks like its just them and one other vendor that is using the Ho'okipa material for the leading edge and strut - I am assuming the canopy is dacron but can't find info on it - but it sounds really good and I have not found any negative opinions like with aluula.

One of those wings with with the long skinny board and big foil seems like my best shot to make that light wind technique cited above eventually work for me at my very convenient (but kinda lousy) spot.

Thanks for all the great input!

I, have both aluula and ho'okipa wings and would say this about the difference: The Aluula has a very crunchy/stiff feel to it and is very sensitive to trapped moisture (don't pack up wet!) whereas the Ho'Okipa has an incredibly supple feel to it, almost like a fine leather, and doesn't have the same water sensitivities. Beyond that, Cloud IX USA is based out of SoCal, where the wind is always light so they really have their big wings locked in.

Full disclosure, I became an ambassador for Cloud IX this year. I live in the Gorge and ride other brands for wings size 3m and below (like I said, they are locked in for big wings but their 2.8 is a dud), but hope to be working with them to develop some better small wings for the future. If you have any questions, or want to save a few bucks on the 6m, don't hesitate to shoot me a dm and I'll get you any info on that wing that you might want!

StellaBlu

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2023, 07:22:54 AM »
What do you mean by "Aluula is sensitive to trapped moisture"?  Ive been riding Aluula wings since they came out and while I did have an issue with an early batch of the material delaminating, I don't think it had to do with trapped moisture, and it seems that they have refined the material since that early batch (haven't had an issue since then).  I'm curious what issues you have seen?

While I am a big believer in the next-gen stiff materials, I actually think the super stiff wings often have worse low end than some of the more traditional material wings.  The weight difference is meaningful in these large wings though.

B-Walnut

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Re: Ultra Light Wind Winging w/DW Board and Small Wing
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2023, 07:48:57 AM »
What do you mean by "Aluula is sensitive to trapped moisture"?  Ive been riding Aluula wings since they came out and while I did have an issue with an early batch of the material delaminating, I don't think it had to do with trapped moisture, and it seems that they have refined the material since that early batch (haven't had an issue since then).  I'm curious what issues you have seen?

While I am a big believer in the next-gen stiff materials, I actually think the super stiff wings often have worse low end than some of the more traditional material wings.  The weight difference is meaningful in these large wings though.

I, personally, have not had any issues with my Aluula, but I haven't had it terribly long either. However, I talked to one of the original designers of aluula and he said the major problem with it is that it isn't meant to get wet. As such, you'll read in the literature and I believe it even says on my wings "DO NOT STORE WET" which we all know is bad for our wigs in general, but it's especially bad for aluula as a laminated material. The trapped moisture wrapped up in the wing eventually penetrates the lamination and causes failures. Ho'okipa is not laminated, so that's not an issue.

I'm 100% a fan of the super fabrics. I desperately wish there were more Ho'okipa options out there, it's my favorite for price point to performance ratio. The Aluula is great, but has the interesting water issue. Dyneema is intriguing, but I am skeptical of it since as a climber, we knew it had significant fatigue issues caused by sun exposure. I'm excited for the new Ocean Rodeo Glide AA, but am trying to swallow the $2500 price tag for a 3m. I'd expect it to be the best wing on the market by far at that size though.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2023, 07:51:52 AM by B-Walnut »

 


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