Author Topic: Modularity  (Read 12546 times)

Admin

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Modularity
« on: February 14, 2023, 06:53:48 AM »
A bit more on modularity. Here are two hubs and two wingtips (all interchangable on the same carbon rods). This results in a 4 sizes from 1300 ( same as posted here earlier) to 920 as pictured with volumes from just under 2000 to just over 1200 (merged in photoshop, so not exactly to scale - apologies). Small changes at the hub result in big volume changes so that is a great way to easily shed size, lift, drag etc. One great benefit is to be able to A to B compare design factors in the same session without introducing any outside variables. Same wingtip, less washout for example. Same wingtip with sharklets. Really anything that sparks your interest.



« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 06:56:02 AM by Admin »

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2023, 06:46:57 AM »
If nothing else, I am building a great carbon tube collection 🙂.  If anyone needs some stiff, lightweight curtain rods, ping me.  Here is V1 of my Missing Link which will draw together the wing sections posted earlier.  I had originally thought that this may need to be an additional element, but due to the hollow nature of the carbon tubes and the fact that they nest perfectly inside one another, I am going to use the reinforcement tubes for dual service as draw tubes as well.  Adhesive will be used where required (self explantory, I hope) so that the sections all remain free but the pull mechanisms can function.  Please note that the hardware is not actual, just availabe stp files for easy display).  Allen head tensioning from within the mast well is accurate.  Longer bolt length and plug spacing will of course be required to achieve adequate adhesion and required tension.  I guess I will have to put my BOA actuated internal harness system on hold for later 🙂.






« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 05:44:57 PM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2023, 12:27:30 PM »
Me too, I have tubes everywhere. I imagine your collection is more neatly stored. I've tested the idea of just using hot glue--it works even better than I expected. My biggest problem is maintaining dimensional accuracy with different print geometries. In other words, my wings don't line up 100 percent with my fuselage (more accurately, wing root) even though the foil and hole pattern of the wing butting up to the root comes from the same sketch. I've abandoned annealing for now since that exacerbates the problem, and having holes wander around and get smaller depending on what they are printed on is irritating enough.

I'm in the process of hacking my printer to increase the enclosure temperature. It's not going to be easy to do. I thought I could just add some insulation and slap on a couple of PTC (positive temperature coefficient--an odd trade name for little fans with a heating element) fans and some insulation, but NO! Why would it be that simple?

I like your pull tube approach. It might be the better solution. We'll see. I have to bake mine to get it apart, but that's not a huge deal. You might look at these kind of inserts:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Threaded+Insert+for+Plastic+Straight+Flush+Brass+Thread+Inserts+5mm

 I use them to hold my fake Foil Drive together. You can insert them into plastic by just pushing them into an undersized hole with a soldering iron, or glue them into your tubes. they hold remarkably well, though of course, I've managed to pull some out. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 12:37:11 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2023, 03:25:36 PM »
Hah!  This does not surprise me.  That swoosh that carbon tubes make sliding together is just irresistable.  :)

A stainelss version of this should be great https://www.amazon.com/uxcell-Socket-Barrel-Furniture-Hardware/dp/B01439J45U/ref=sr_1_14?crid=3S5JVTTLF1OTO&keywords=stainless+sleeve+nut+allen&qid=1676674876&sprefix=stainless+sleeve+nut+allen%2Caps%2C327&sr=8-14

As long as it can fit through a mast well and slide into the matched recess in the mast well wall we are good.  With a stubby allen tool we can easily attach and tension from there.  The bolt head can be bonded inside the existing outercarbon tube with another smaller internal bonded tube section to pull against.  That can be made rock solid.  The bolt could possibly have an extented hex head to allow adhesive to fill those gaps and it could be backed up by another plug to add even more bonding surface if needed.  That should all be fine.

One thing with the Bambu's is that they leak some air, so as the product cools, cool air is entering the chamber asymetrically.  This can cuase warping.  I had not been paying enough attention to the cooling period and was causing myself warping problems on larger prints.  I am now taping (painters tape) all glass edges (front and top) and waiting for full cooling to room temp and then some before removing.  On solid prints I think we have internal part temps that remain high for longer and that differnce was also causing issues.  Also the temp difference from bed temp to head temp is a problem.  The bed stays warm while the recently laid filiment cools quicker.  This can cause the print to contract upwards (cooler layers pulling warmer layers).  Rafting helps quite a bit.  Also more shell layers vs stronger infill was suggested.  This stuff is hard to print but it is awesome.  The forums are not helpful for PA-CF info.  More soon...
« Last Edit: February 17, 2023, 04:13:31 PM by Admin »

finbox

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2023, 05:19:04 PM »
Nice work Admin- one question will I be able to use my old GOFOIL rubber mallet on this wing?  ;)

PonoBill

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2023, 06:43:25 PM »
Which tube source have you settled on? Some of my sizes don't telescope very well. The 12 to 10 is nearly impossible. The rest have a nasty tendency to jam. The tubes need to be super straight and dimensionally consistent to telescope with no issues.

I'm modifying the Bambu I have here with thermostatically controlled heater fans. I can't get too carried away, there's a lot of plastic in these things, and the electronics won't be happy with high temps. But I think I can do 80C without problems and keep the enclosure at that temp as long as I want.

I'm designing some parts to isolate the electronics section in the back of the printer from the enclosure. Then I'll add a little insulation to the walls and cool most of the electronics with a small fan. There is already a cooling fan for the main control board and the power supply (that's the hum you hear when you turn on the printer) but they just circulate the ambient air in the enclosure. It's going to be tricky, but it's all possible. One of the biggest problems is the Z axis leadscrew in the back. The hotbed cable attaches there, so any part I make to block the air from circulating through the electronics bay has to accommodate that cable going up and down with the bed. I think I can make that work with a TPU overlapping gasket, or maybe stay primitive and stick on some weatherstripping.

The alternative is spending $25K on a high temp printer---nah.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2023, 04:14:39 AM »
Which tube source have you settled on? Some of my sizes don't telescope very well. The 12 to 10 is nearly impossible. The rest have a nasty tendency to jam. The tubes need to be super straight and dimensionally consistent to telescope with no issues.

I'm modifying the Bambu I have here with thermostatically controlled heater fans. I can't get too carried away, there's a lot of plastic in these things, and the electronics won't be happy with high temps. But I think I can do 80C without problems and keep the enclosure at that temp as long as I want.

I'm designing some parts to isolate the electronics section in the back of the printer from the enclosure. Then I'll add a little insulation to the walls and cool most of the electronics with a small fan. There is already a cooling fan for the main control board and the power supply (that's the hum you hear when you turn on the printer) but they just circulate the ambient air in the enclosure. It's going to be tricky, but it's all possible. One of the biggest problems is the Z axis leadscrew in the back. The hotbed cable attaches there, so any part I make to block the air from circulating through the electronics bay has to accommodate that cable going up and down with the bed. I think I can make that work with a TPU overlapping gasket, or maybe stay primitive and stick on some weatherstripping.

The alternative is spending $25K on a high temp printer---nah.

Bambu is being super helpful.  They are stoked on this project and they are printing some of my parts now to see what they can find and suggest.  Really above and beyond service.  I think we are pushing what this unit was designed for but they may want to compete higher up the food chain as well.  I also contacted Vison Miner again.  They offer print services and have high temp machines.  I may see what they can do as well.  It will be nice to know at the very least. 

I ordered a few sizes of these for the draw hardware.  Looks great.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09BZFGGRG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_image_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This stuff is outstanding.  You need to order both the stuff with 2 mm walls and 1 mm walls to get a really broad range of nested tubes, but it is brilliant.  Here are the two thicknesses

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07V4N884Z/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08ZSZ8V6Y?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

A little wierd but these camera rails are awesome plugs for the 19 mm fuselage tubes we are using:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NGYSHAH?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details


Don't bother with the US companies.  So far it has all been garbage.  Even the "super high modulus" stuff.  Flimsy tossers.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 04:16:43 AM by Admin »

Dontsink

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2023, 09:55:46 AM »
This project could change foiling in wondrous ways.
When you guys get this tech to work (i think you will) the Infinity or Prandtl or Boxwing that i firmly believe to be the future of foiling might vecome an affordable reality for the masses :)
Pics are from https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100054654391004


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Re: Modularity
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2023, 02:43:02 PM »
This project could change foiling in wondrous ways.
When you guys get this tech to work (i think you will) the Infinity or Prandtl or Boxwing that i firmly believe to be the future of foiling might vecome an affordable reality for the masses :)
Pics are from https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100054654391004

I have been reading about Prantl.  What an intersting history there. 

Fin, hang on to the mallet.  You never know :)

PonoBill

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2023, 12:41:35 AM »
Actually, I just used my GoFoil mallet. The tubes are quite snug, especially the 8mm ones. The 12mm slide in smoothly. This is straight Polycarbonate, and it printed beautifully with the chamber temperature at 64C (using a temporary heater hack. When my actual heaters arrive I think I can hold 80C easily and this will get even better. I'm building an ESP32-based (Arduino on steroids) temperature control that includes a controlled cooldown. If you talk to the folks from Bambu or the Vision Miner guys soon, ask them what the slope of the cooldown should be
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 12:49:47 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2023, 01:11:43 AM »
This is what the warping looked like before I heated the chamber:
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2023, 04:13:23 AM »
Handsome in White, Bill!

I have been on another path which has become laser focused on PA-CF and Modularity.  Below are some images of earlier problems and an earlier model of my 1150 wing option (2nd wing back im my OP image) before the hub was designed.  A lot has changed since then including the print methods and the joinery.  The joints as pictured were driving me nuts.  Any distortion of a single print doubles when joining two, so it really cannot exist.  It took a lot of refinements to get rid of the bowing, which would ruin modularity.  These really need to be 100% precise if they are going to work well without bonding.  The joint close up is the wing tip joint and that one actually will be bonded but it is critical that they all be perfect so that the above pull rods will function as intended.  The bottom images were adhesion tests from when I swithched to the large nozzle.  I had already done a dozen of these for the small nozzle but they all needed to be redone for this one.  You can see that the line height and temps are wrong on both of these.  The lines need to be compressing each other and essentially becoming one solid unit, but not distorting the grid details.  The next layer needs to print before cooling occurs so that that also becomes part of one unified wall.  That margin is hair thin and it took me a lot of tests.  When it is right, orientation doesn't matter at all.  This stuff becomes crazy strong.  So freaking cool!  I think this is going to be essential for each printer, just like camera lenses, computer monitors, etc.  They are never perfect and always require individual adjustment.  Slight manufacturing variances are going to lead to unit inconsistancies.














« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 08:57:56 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2023, 09:01:56 AM »
None of this is easy, but all of it is possible. I think PA-CF will be fine, but PC-CF will probably be quite a bit stiffer.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2023, 11:58:38 AM »
PS:

I was getting chamber temps at 43 degrees untouched with just bed prewarmed to 120.  Taping got me to 53.  Plugging the rear chute got me up to 57 and wrapping with a towel to 63.  I am going to get some insulation blocks to make a simple tape on surround and see where that gets me.  Every little bit helps.  All fans turned to off of course.  All of this also reduces the cool air being sucked in by the warmer air inside, especially during cooldown.

PonoBill

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Re: Modularity
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2023, 12:26:09 PM »
I got about the same levels with simple insulation and air restriction. But if we go much higher without some fancy-schmancy temperature control inside the printer I'm a bit concerned about the electronics, which are behind the plastic panel in the back of the printer and in a little channel on the top left if you're facing the printer. If you take the back off you'll see what I mean. If you do that be very careful to make note of what screws go where. It's not as bad as pulling a Mac apart, but there are screws threaded for inserts and some threaded for straight insertion into plastic.

I also want to go a little higher, the more I read about material science of polymers, the more I think we need to master the cooldown rate and maintain higher chamber temps if we have any hope of printing high temp polymers with consistency and accuracy. 60C is nice, 80C is much more better-er.

Fortunately, we have 3D printers that enable us to make parts to isolate the hot area a bit more, and even cool the parts we want to live long and happy lives. I think maintaining warm and cool areas in the same box is going to take more than just passive insulation. Whatever I figure out for a solution I'll pass on to you.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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