Author Topic: Progress, revelations and musings  (Read 10963 times)

surfcowboy

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2023, 12:53:07 PM »
Have you tried placing them between two chairs and standing on them?  I reckon that's about how much force will be on them and you'll get a feel for whether they will be strong enough and stiff enough.  I'm quite certain you could place any foil wing between two chairs and stand on it without any problem,

This isn't quite fair. Do this test with an axis 1300 and try to get Adrian to warranty you. Remember, a lot of area is under the board, near the mast. That takes a lot of strain off the the structure compared to just two chairs anywhere near the tips. I'd wager half the lift is within a foot of the fuselage.

The beauty of "if it doesn't work" is that the next version is days or hours away. Most print time. If I prototyped a wing I'd give up as each wing would takes hours to shape, laminate and finish. If this sucks the next one is really fast to make.

This is a bold aggressive approach aimed at moving our sport forward at a pace we could only dream of 6 months ago. I'm no longer skeptical. This is far more likely to work than not just due to the ability to iterate before you get tired of it.

And to answer your question.  I'd stand on 4 carbon arrows shafts supported in a carbon/plastic hybrid frame without blinking an eye. And I'd risk a $200 quickly replaceable foil wing without concern as well. An $800 DW wing? Nah, I'm worr about that. If you pull back from "the current way is the only way to do this" it really gets exciting. This sport didn't exist a few years ago. Neither did these materials. I'm pulling for this personally.

How do I get on the board of this project? I have a ton of open source experience.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2023, 07:09:43 PM »
I don't think anyone is seriously thinking about carbon arrows. There's a huge variety of sizes and wall thicknesses for carbon tubes and rods available that are far stiffer and much cheaper
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 07:11:53 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2023, 07:18:36 PM »
I'm going to switch to printing straight PA for a while. I can get a much nicer part and I'm not convinced that the PA-CF will be that much stronger. Most importantly, it prints beautifully with the .4 mm extruder, which seems to have hyper-tuned print settings that I've been unable to duplicate with PA-CF and .6.

I'm going to get in touch with some of the highly experienced 3D printing geeks and see what they suggest.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2023, 01:26:35 AM »
It is really cool to nest these tubes within one another for various stiffnesses and weights.  That is another layer of modularity.  Chan at 115 lbs, does not have the requirement as me at 170 (both of us cruisers) as opposed to a hotshot kid flatlanding 25 footers.  Not all bikes need to be downhill or enduro bikes.  There is room for gravel grinders and, god forbid, even road bikes.  We have the potential to hit many uses in one system.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2023, 09:20:34 PM »
Here's my latest effort with telecoping carbon tubes. I'm working on a set of wings and wingtips. The idea is that the doubled and even triple telescoped sections will bridge the junctions and then continue as the wing thickness decreases ad two layers and finally one. The largest tubes are 12mm.

Since the junctions telescope instead of overlapping as I first intended I can use a lot more tubes. So I did.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2023, 11:54:07 PM »
OK, that last one was kind of silly. Here's a more rational effort with the mast attachment made a bit more sturdy and raised a bit so some rods and tubes can run under it. A bit more rational distribution of telescoping tubes and rods as well.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2023, 01:57:35 AM »
I have the 1150 Alien Wing one part from completely printed now as well (first time through).  I am really proud of this one.  It is very sleek and refined feeling, and super strong.  Each wing presents super interesting design challenges.  I am printing each of the seven parts differently.  In a mass production environmen this can be reduced to 3 parts.  I have good notes on each part so I can keep track of its evolution. 

My overlying goal has been: Don't let the modular concept (print-to-ride or modular mass production) steer the form.  First and foremost, the end result foil system has to be what I want to see and what I want to ride.  That makes the whole process more intricate but hopefully more enduring as well.  For instance both of my printed foils have XYZ curves that put hard limits on internal stucture lengths (using mass produced, readily available, cheap carbon products).  That requires a lot of thought (and filiment :) ).

A good result is going to require a high degree of printing or production precision for every part.  The joints have to be perfect without warping or bow, and the cavities to tube tolerances need to be really tight.  Any play in those areas will spoil the soup.

I have read the critiques with interest but after these last prints, I know we are going to change some minds.  :).

« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 02:06:09 AM by Admin »

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2023, 02:25:51 AM »
I just heard back from Bambu on my open ticket about annealing specifics for their filaments. They wrote that "the best annealing temperature of Bambu PA-CF and PAHT-CF is 120 to 130 ℃." They wrote that 8 hours is suggested. I pushed them for ramps and a more specific schedule because this is still pretty loose. I know that cool down ramps are critical so that parts are not weakened during recrystalization, so I am going to hold off for that info.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2023, 08:46:34 AM »
Yes, I really don't care about the modularity, that's for either someone doing this commercially or someone who doesn't own a dozen printers (in varying degrees of usefulness) to worry about. I'm not doing anything about the Z axis yet, but that's refinement. I'll get there.

In the meantime, I have some TPU on the way to print flexible stuff. You can now get specific shore ratings for printable TPU. I'm thinking about integrated soft(er) edges on the wings. The combination of the AMS and relying on internal structure for strength instead of the skin makes this feasible. Of course, I'll also be making a lot of motorcycle parts and better wheels and tires for my robots.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2023, 10:37:46 AM »
this is what ChatGPT says our printer settings should be:

write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer

Nozzle Size: 0.6mm
Print Temperature: 195C - 205C
Bed Temperature: 40C - 50C
Print Speed: 50 - 80 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 0.7mm
Retraction Speed: 30mm/s
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Infill: 20 - 30%

and this:
write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer using advanced printer settings

Nozzle Temperature: 220C
Print Bed Temperature: 40C
Print Bed Adhesion: Brim (5-10 outlines)
Print Speed: 30-50 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 4-5 mm
Retraction Speed: 25-30 mm/s
Print Flow: 100-110%
Fan Speed: 0-30%
Cooling: Enabled

We humans are SO fucked.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 11:29:17 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2023, 11:40:49 AM »
I've done a number of automated runs now using the API. I might have to do a paid subscription, this thing is handy. And this is for printing Nylon:

write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer using advanced printer settings including support
Nozzle size: 0.6mm
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Print Speed: 40mm/s
Travel Speed: 120mm/s
Temperature: 210C
Printing Temperature: 190-200C
Heated Bed Temperature: 40-50C
Support Material: Yes
Support Material Type: PVA
Support Material Interface Layers: 0.2mm
Support Material Interface Distance: 0.2mm
Support Material Angle Threshold: 60
Support Material Pattern: Grid
Support Material Z Distance: 0.2mm
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 40mm/s
Coasting Distance: 0.2mm
Coasting Speed: 20mm/s
Print Fan Speed: 100%
Bridging Fan Speed: 90%

If I run the queries with a temperature of .8 I get substantial variation in both detail and parameters. All of them look interesting. Of course ChatGPT doesn't really know what a Bambu labs Carbon X1 is since the training terminated in 2021. Interestingly, I get a substantial variation by changing to a Prusa i3 MK3S+

write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle for a Prusa printer using advanced printer settings including support

Nozzle Diameter: 0.6mm
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Print Speed: 40mm/s
Travel Speed: 80mm/s
Infill: 20%
Perimeters: 3
Top/Bottom Layers: 3
Support Type: Everywhere
Support Angle: 60
Support Overhang Angle: 45
Support Z Distance: 0.2mm
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 40mm/s
Print Temperature: 230C
Bed Temperature: 70C
Print Cooling: Enabled
Bridging Settings: Enabled

Bridging Speed: 20mm/s
Bridging Fan Speed: 100%

write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle and 100 percent infill for a Prusa printer using advanced printer settings including support

Nozzle Diameter: 0.6mm
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Print Speed: 40mm/s
Print Temperature: 230C
Bed Temperature: 80C
Fan Speed: 100%
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 40mm/s
Support Type: Everywhere
Support Angle: 60
Support Density: 100%
Support Z Distance: 0.2mm
Support XY Distance: 0.2mm
Brim Width: 0.4mm
Combing Mode: Off

running openai.chat:

Here are the recommended printer settings for printing with PA (Polyamide) filament using a .6mm nozzle and 100% infill on a Prusa printer with advanced printer settings including support:

Nozzle Temperature: 260-290C
Bed Temperature: 85-100C
Print Speed: 50-70mm/s
First Layer Speed: 30mm/s
First Layer Height: 150%
First Layer Width: 120%
Number of Perimeters: 4-6
Infill Percentage: 100%
Infill Pattern: Grid or Triangles
Support Type: Everywhere
Support Overhang Angle: 45
Support Infill Percentage: 20-30%
Support Infill Pattern: Lines
Retraction Distance: 4mm
Retraction Speed: 35mm/s
Wipe Distance: 1.5mm

Note: These settings are a starting point and you may need to make adjustments based on the specific conditions in your environment and the dimensions of your model. It's recommended to start with a small test print and adjust the settings as needed.

and for the Bambu Labs printer, which I don't think the training period includes:

write the best printer settings for PA filament with a .6mm nozzle and 100 percent infill for a Bambu Labs X1 Carbon printer using advanced printer settings including support

Materials: PA filament, .6mm nozzle
Infill: 100%
Nozzle temperature: 220-240C
Bed temperature: 60-70C
Layer height: 0.2-0.3mm
Print speed: 50-60mm/s
Travel speed: 120mm/s
Support material: Yes
Support type: Touching build plate
Support overhang angle: 50
Support density: 20-30%
Support line width: 0.6mm
Support material temperature: 220-240C
Support material adhesion: Brim or Raft
Printing temperature: 220-240C
Bridging speed: 30-40mm/s
Bridging flow: 105-110%
Bridging fan speed: 0%
Retraction distance: 3-5mm
Retraction speed: 40mm/s
Retraction minimum travel: 1mm
Retraction lift: 0.2mm
Retraction hop: 0.1mm
Coast at end: 0.5mm
Wipe distance: 0.5mm
Cooling fan speed: 50%
Minimum fan speed: 20%

With these advanced settings, you should get high quality and detailed prints with PA filament on your Bambu Labs X1 Carbon printer. You can also fine-tune these settings according to your preference and the specific filament you are using.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 12:37:18 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2023, 12:18:39 PM »
Oooh, pretty. This is just a test print, for the real thing I'll use a higher percentage of infill--maybe even 100 percent, though I'm not certain it's necessary.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2023, 02:11:14 PM »
this is what ChatGPT says our printer settings should be:

write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer

Nozzle Size: 0.6mm
Print Temperature: 195C - 205C
Bed Temperature: 40C - 50C
Print Speed: 50 - 80 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 0.7mm
Retraction Speed: 30mm/s
Layer Height: 0.2mm
Infill: 20 - 30%

and this:
write the best printer settings for PA_CF filament with a .6mm nozzle for a bambu labs carbon X1 printer using advanced printer settings

Nozzle Temperature: 220C
Print Bed Temperature: 40C
Print Bed Adhesion: Brim (5-10 outlines)
Print Speed: 30-50 mm/s
Retraction Distance: 4-5 mm
Retraction Speed: 25-30 mm/s
Print Flow: 100-110%
Fan Speed: 0-30%
Cooling: Enabled

We humans are SO fucked.

These are really odd.  Both of the print temps are below the melt temps for PA-CF.  Bambu has the print temps at 280-290 for PACF. 

It looks like Bambu is adding more CF inclusive filaments as well.  PAHT_CF and PLA-CF are up on the site now.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 02:23:31 PM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2023, 05:20:55 PM »
Yeah, Nylon 6 melts at 256C. I'm going to try some of the settings, but I suspect Mr. Chat doesn't really know what PA-CF is, though the verbal summary mentioned Polyamide.

I've confirmed that humidity is my problem, printing here in Bora-Bora is a challenge. I baked my spool of generic PA-CF for 8 hours at 100C in the easy-bake toaster oven (Diane is threatening to replace it) and weighed it. 1385g. Then I stuck it in the AMS with freshly refreshed Silica bags and went winging. When I came back three hours later it weighed 1405g. If the weight difference is accurate, that's 20cc of water, which is astonishing. I thought maybe 10cc would be feasible and went around singing "I'm not in lo-ove, so don't forget it. It's just a silly phase I'm going through..."
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Progress, revelations and musings
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2023, 10:41:06 PM »
as usual, my most recent test print reveals a host of problems. the major dimensions shrunk exactly as expected and I adjusted for them. The holes are another story. It looks like I need to add another 9 percent to account for shrinkage, as George Costanza said.

The next step is printing in Nylon with 100 percent infill and adjusting all the hole sizes and placement. I'll measure everything as-printed and then anneal it to see how much added shrinkage occurs. And I need to use a different pattern for the top and bottom surfaces. Hilbert Curve perhaps? The monotonic line pattern looks like cheap wood.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2023, 10:47:48 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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