Author Topic: Weight Matters  (Read 2145 times)

Beasho

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Weight Matters
« on: January 24, 2023, 10:27:26 AM »
With all the talk about board lengths, and widths why doesn’t anyone talk

WEIGHT ?

What does it WEIGH?

We need to shed some LIGHT on Weight.  It’s like we’re all hanging out afraid to offend Anorexics. 

As I have started down the path of board building I have been running the numbers on WEIGHT. 
I have realized that the majority of boards are built:

1)   To look good with THICK Paint jobs
2)   To Not Ding
3)   Without Vacuum bags

When it comes to weight of SUP foil boards
•   8 lbs is DIVINE weight
•   10 lbs is DREAM Weight
•   12 lbs is Fantastic
•   15 lbs Average
•   18 lbs Getting Too Heavy

I now look at boards and I see DEAD WEIGHT.  I am starting to believe that even a BAD shape that is LIGHT will be better than a great shape that is TOO Heavy. 
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 10:29:47 AM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2023, 10:27:51 AM »
In this video The Flying Dutchman suggests: 1 lb per 10 liters so a 100 liter board would be 10 lbs.

Flying Dutchman: Volume and Weight.  This guy is at the Cutting Edge of DURABLE Foil Boards.  Light and STRONG. 

--> https://oneflyingdutchman.com/all-about-foils/

https://youtu.be/QPuXwRFAn28



Dwight (DW)

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2023, 11:50:51 AM »
Customers are kooks. They don’t think twice about just putting their boards on the pavement when rigging, instead of grass. They put their knees on the board bottom while mounting the foil. They fall on the deck. Would you want to deal with ding complaints?

You can build a tough custom board that is lighter than production, simply because custom boards don’t need 50 footstrap inserts for every whacky customer preference.

If you want a no compromise ding machine, you have to build it yourself.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 12:00:47 PM by Dwight (DW) »

SUPeter

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2023, 08:20:56 AM »
In some interview with Dave Kalama I remember him commenting on DW boards that were too light were more pitch sensitive, especially when dropping down the bigger steeper bumps.  In some ways, I find that to be true.  While playing with mast positions on my DW board, Having the mast far forward (less nose swing weight) the board becomes a bit more challenging to control, though easier to pump.  Having the mast more rearward, control becomes much easier.  I, myself, prefer to make boards as lightweight as possible. Again, compromise is always the sweet spot.

Dontsink

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2023, 09:30:42 AM »
In some interview with Dave Kalama I remember him commenting on DW boards that were too light were more pitch sensitive, especially when dropping down the bigger steeper bumps.  In some ways, I find that to be true.  While playing with mast positions on my DW board, Having the mast far forward (less nose swing weight) the board becomes a bit more challenging to control, though easier to pump.  Having the mast more rearward, control becomes much easier.  I, myself, prefer to make boards as lightweight as possible. Again, compromise is always the sweet spot.

As  much as i like and respect Dave Kalama i think you should take that statement with a grain of salt.
He is selling hundreds of production boards and as DW said most customers mistreat high tech gear.
Kalama production boards are not specially light, his custom jobs weigh nothing...
« Last Edit: January 25, 2023, 09:32:35 AM by Dontsink »

sflinux

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2023, 05:21:34 AM »
With all the talk about board lengths, and widths why doesn’t anyone talk
WEIGHT ?
What does it WEIGH?
Or more specifically, don't we want to know the density of a SUP foil board?
Density = Mass (g) / Volume (L)
Reference) 1 pound = 453.5924 grams ; 28.34952 g = 1 oz
e.x. #1)
i.e. Your foil amigo's board is 9 lbs right now: 7' 6" Board x 21" @ 125 Liters 
Density (foil amigo's board) = 4082.3 g / 125 L = 32.7 g/L

e.x. #2) Flying Dutchman 100L board @ 160 oz
Density (Fying Dutchman) = 4535.924 g / 100 L = 45.4 g/L

e.x. #3) Kalama Performance E3 7'2" x 31.75" 167L @ 18.96 lbs
Density (E3) = 8600.1 g / 167 L = 51.5 g/L

e.x. #4) Sunova Sup foil 7'3" x 33" 167L @ 8.96 kg
Density (sunova) = 8960 g / 167 L = 53.7 g/L

Like board dimensions, I agree weight should also be included the specifications of a foilboard.  I hope other manufacturers do like Kalama Performance & Sunova and include that spec.  Jimmy Lewis does not.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 05:36:57 AM by sflinux »
Quiver Shaped by: Joe Blair, Blane Chambers, Jimmy Lewis, Kirk McGinty, and Bob Pearson.
Me: 195#, 6'2"

sflinux

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2023, 06:15:25 AM »
This XPS has a density of 1.6 pounds/ cubic foot:
https://xps.supply/product/kingspan-greenguard-4-x-4-x-8-square-edge-board-insulation-21/

That converts to the above units of 25.6 g/L
{(1.6 pound = 725.7478 g, cubic foot = 28.31685 L) => 725 g/28.3 L}
So a final board density of ~32 g/L is impressive.

With 0.1% water absorption, an unfinished 100L board could take on 0.1 L = 100 grams
Assuming the volume stays the same, but the weight increases, that would give a "wet" density for XPS of 26.6 g / L.
{28.3165 L x 0.001 = 0.0283165 L of water = 28.31685 g of water; (725.7478 + 28.31685) / 28.31685 L }

Is this where you guys are sourcing your XPS?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 06:36:41 AM by sflinux »
Quiver Shaped by: Joe Blair, Blane Chambers, Jimmy Lewis, Kirk McGinty, and Bob Pearson.
Me: 195#, 6'2"

PonoBill

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2023, 10:02:35 AM »
Quote from: sflinux link=topic=38349.msg439206#msg439206
Like board dimensions, I agree weight should also be included the specifications of a foilboard.  I hope other manufacturers do like Kalama Performance & Sunova and include that spec.  Jimmy Lewis does not.

Jimmy is smart not to mention weight. All his boards, even customs, are sandwich construction. Intrinsically heavier than non-sandwich. Everyone knows Jimmy boards are bomber, but if people see two boards with the same specs and one is lighter, they'll buy the light one. And then be pissed when the first time they lay the board down with a sharp pebble under it they get a ding, or worse yet, punch a leaker hole. And if they don't see it their two-pound-lighter board will suddenly be five pounds heavier.

Don'tsink's comment is right on. Sunova boards are also sort-of sandwich, which is why they're heavier, and also why they are tougher.

I prefer Flying Dutchman boards, but considering them anything like production boards is laughable. Most custom boards are produced faster. Mark makes one board a week and lavishes attention on each one. His extremely expensive high-tech material and fabrication techniques make a light but strong board, but they aren't Jimmy-tough. They can't be. I'm amazed he still makes boards for me (though my wait times have increased greatly) since he knows I beat the shit out of everything.

Beasho's approach to radically changing surfboard construction has no commercial potential. The boards won't be shiny, people buy shiny unless the non-shiny board is super cheap (Wavestorm). XPS was tried and discarded by the surfboard industry long ago because you can't make a pretty board from it. If you seal it in fiberglass it delams. The porous idea can work, but it's going to look like a Wavestorm reject.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2023, 10:21:48 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

B-Walnut

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2023, 05:40:51 PM »
Customers are kooks. They don’t think twice about just putting their boards on the pavement when rigging, instead of grass. They put their knees on the board bottom while mounting the foil. They fall on the deck. Would you want to deal with ding complaints?

You can build a tough custom board that is lighter than production, simply because custom boards don’t need 50 footstrap inserts for every whacky customer preference.

If you want a no compromise ding machine, you have to build it yourself.

I'm consistently baffled by this. The way people trash their gear with a total look of cluelessness is astounding. I just sold a friend my 2 year old sup. Flawless condition. It took him less than a year to have 6 creases across the board and then snapped it with the seventh. I inquired as to how in the world that was possible... he left it on his roof rack strapped down tight, all summer long, even in 116 degree heat, let your imagination do the rest.

I'll probably look towards custom gear from here on out if the weight savings are really there. I never use straps and am always annoyed by the inserts. All my gear is rinsed, lives in backs, rigged in grass, etc.

pafoil

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2023, 09:41:23 PM »
Any board over 13 lbs, it is a no go for me. As people progress I do not see any future for production boards over this weight.
Once you try a 12 lbs, and realise that you can use a smaller foil, pumps better and moves better. It's all over.
Production companies should stop doing those heavy boards, they are just stoping people getting into sup foil. Which is not bad ;)


Califoilia

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2023, 09:11:58 PM »
I found it easier just to lose a few lbs off the old bod, than continually fret about a pound or two heavier board. That's also why I trunk it 90% of the year, and wear a 2mm jacket when it's "cold" instead of carting around 2-3 lbs of wetsuit full of water.

Also, while I didn't watch the video, I gotta say that the thumbnail photo of an aluminum mast on the "light" board in a thread so worried about every ounce of board weight did give me a giggle. ;D

And honestly, wth do us 50, 60, 70+ year olds, 185lbs plusers on sup tug foils, really think we're going to accomplish with a pound or two less foil board...foil like the 15, 20, 30 year olds, and sub-160lb "kids" on their tray table boards? :o 8)

That all said, I ride Kings boards, and Dave consistently turns out sub 12lb boards, so it's never been too much of a problem for me anyway.
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

PonoBill

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2023, 09:29:47 AM »
Yeah, I think you nailed it Califoilia. I'm reading these threads from the standpoint of technical interest, but having gained back ten of the twenty pounds I lost during COVID, I'm not looking for construction techniques to fix my fat geezer issue. I get the swing weight issue, especially with long Kalama-style boards, but its really my smallest issue. For lunatics like Beasho it's important, for me, no.

On the other hand, I'd point out that NoLimitz offers a rock-solid mast that's about 2.5 pounds in sizes from 75 to 95. An Axis 19mm aluminum mast is about 5 pounds and the carbon axis masts are heavier (I think). The NoLimitz guys, right across the river from me in White Salmon, have been making bomber carbon stuff since the 80's. I vaguely remember Steve and his skinny masts from about 1990--when I switched from the insanely heavy Ampro windsurfing masts to NoLimitz Carbon Wave. I'll be switching over to NoLimitz foil masts this summer, if only so I can carry my board without groaning. I just need to convince them to make them with an Axis adapter.

edit: Well, gee, that was quick. Turns out they already make an axis mast. My current design for the print-to-ride wing root fits the 19mm Axis Aluminum mast with no adapter. I'll need to change the profile to fit the 16.7 mm No Limitz mast, but that's a simple matter of redrawing the cutting "tool" in Fusion 360. The mast adapters for NoLimitz look like they bolt onto the mast as the Cedrus adapters do. I suspect I can dispense with the adapters assuming my printed foils actually work at some point. 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 09:51:30 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

B-Walnut

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2023, 12:14:22 PM »
To a point, I think you can say that weight of gear doesn't matter vs weight on your body. However, I've been doing adventure sports my whole life and I undoubtedly find more joy in the experience of using light gear. With the sup foil and winging I think of it less on the water, but I really notice it on land. Kind of funny to think of it that way, but carrying a heavy foilboard for any decent walk to the break is just misery.

So, I like buying light gear and do notice the difference but I don't break the bank to save the final ounce.

blueplanetsurf

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2023, 03:02:30 PM »
Light boards are nice but sorry Beasho, I have to totally disagree with your statement:
I am starting to believe that even a BAD shape that is LIGHT will be better than a great shape that is TOO Heavy. 

I would much rather have a solid board with a good shape and right volume than a light/ fragile board with a BAD shape that's not suitable for the conditions and skill level. 
Sure, a lighter board is nice to carry, has less swing weight and is easier to pump but especially in rough/ choppy/ windy conditions and at high speeds the momentum of a heavier board has advantages.  To me a super light board is not the holy grail, especially if it is eggshell fragile and won't last more than a season.   Light weight certainly does not make up for poor board design or a board that is unsuitable for the user/ conditions.

It's like saying a super light mountain bike is better than a heavy road bike for a road race.  The additional drag from wider tires has a much bigger impact than the weight and a heavy road bike with narrow tires would be much faster than a super light mountain bike with wide knobby tires on a smooth surface. 
In my opinion, a light weight board is nice but having the right shape and volume are more important than the weight, especially if the light weight comes at the expense of durability.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 03:15:52 PM by blueplanetsurf »
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jondrums

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Re: Weight Matters
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2023, 04:02:05 PM »
My thought about all this is that what really matters is "swing weight" - which is a simpler term for "moment of inertia".  The formula for moment of inertia is mass x distance^2.   A big key here is the "distance" term, since it is squared.  But also a key question is distance from where?...      Well, that's from wherever the assembly of foil/mast/board is rotating about.  It isn't rotating about the center of the board.    I believe the center of rotation is somewhere a bit above the front foil wing. 

This way, the weight of everything does matter - but in a squared relationship with how far away it is.   I think the weight of the foil mast matter a whole heck of a lot less than the weight in the nose of the board, which is the furthest thing away.   I personally have not noticed any difference going between two different weight masts, but I sure notice the difference between my 16lb SUP and my 13lb SUP and my 10lb wing board (each one shorter than the last).

And by the way all this matters a lot for pumping, but it also matters for the feel of the ride even if you're not pumping.  The lighter smaller gear is just a lot more responsive and fun to ride

 


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