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Author Topic: Something new?  (Read 2531 times)

Admin

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Something new?
« on: November 24, 2022, 10:06:39 AM »
Here is a concept I was playing with this morning. A foil that incorporates the mast connection to the front wing directly, freeing it from the fuselage.  In doing so we could add stiffness, strength and lose a lot of weight from the fuse head and the fuselage.  I would imagine we could use greatly reduced carbon box tube (as pictured) for the fuse, as it will have no mast load or load from the front wing.  Interested in your thoughts.  This one (my first try) is a 1080.  The mast opening is to scale for an Axis carbon mast.   It needs a lot of simplifying and smoothing, but these are the broad strokes.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 02:13:56 PM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2022, 11:23:45 AM »
I was thinking along the same lines. I think if you sweep the wings back you'd increase the pitch stability and perhaps add a bit of gull-wing to increase roll stability. The wing would also counter yaw a bit as long as the sweep was not too great. Most of the information about wing sweep relates to wings in air at high speed, so the characteristics would be relatively unclear until we try it.

I've also been thinking of a carbon blade to hold the stabilizer. Lots of vertical stiffness, but not so much laterally. I think it might turn pretty well. Or be very weird. Either would be fun.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 11:30:58 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2022, 03:58:28 AM »
Cool!  Let's try those things.  I ordered rolls of all of the prepreg bagging consumables including the tube bags so we can experiment with all kinds of SHO's (stabilizer holder outers).   We are not really limited in the wing designs that we can do this way.  Check out this image.  This is the Axis advance fuse and the normal.  They are at scale.  On this first (rough) model, I put the mast just a bit forward of the advance, but we could easily move the mast back to even behind the standard.  We don't need to introduce any pitch issues (unless we want to).  The other pic is how I grabbed the rough mast shape and then scaled that in.  We can likely do that part as a regular mold when we bag so this is just for visualization.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 04:04:19 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2022, 10:46:58 AM »
I'm trying to force myself to catch up to you with the Oculus, but you keep zooming away. That's so cool.

Have you ordered any prepreg, and if you have, do you have a freezer? You need one unless you're going to use everything you ordered very quickly. I keep hearing that it will survive at room temperature for weeks, but I've turned an expensive roll into junk in my chilly shop. Most cheap chest freezers are perfectly adequate but don't have much in the way of temperature control. We have one in our garage at the house, but it has no thermostat at all and freezes stuff to a level that I fear frostbite when I carry stuff from it to the kitchen. You don't want prepreg to get that cold but there are nice add-on control thermostats on Amazon for about 30 bucks. I got one but haven't installed it (which would take about ten seconds, but I'd actually have to think of it when I'm not cooking).

I have a lot of vacuum bagging equipment and supplies, but you're obviously not going to wait until March when I get back. The little EC4 pump that Easy Composites offers looks really good for the price. I spent about three times that much for mine and had to build it, adding a buffer chamber and related control solenoids and pressure control systems to keep from toasting it on a restart when there's already a vacuum applied. The only downside is that it requires 220V, but the oven has a power outlet for it, so that might not be an issue.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

tarquin

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2022, 12:12:38 PM »
https://www.r-g.de/art/390100
 Maybe not much help but this changed things for me. A diaphragm pump. No oil mist. The oil mist can be killer. Built in gauge and valve. Tiny, dosn't heat up. Quiet. I leave it running all night without a worry.
 It is slow at 6l/m but for the small stuff you will be doing it won't matter. I just added a T joiner and valve and suck most of the air out with a shop vac when I did SUPs.
 I do use the Easy Composite quick connectors. Not cheap but they work and don't leak.

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2022, 01:30:18 PM »
Nice.  I ordered the oven with all the goodies, the EC4 pump (they claim mist free - We'll see), those cool quick connectors for everything, and a ton of the consumables.  No prepreg yet.  I am waiting on the printer.  I am going to take your advice and get a freezer and I will look for one with a thermostat. 

We are going to have a lot of fun with this. 

PonoBill

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2022, 03:07:58 PM »
Making the not-really-a-fuselage as a carbon blade would offer a lot of tuning options.
Of course since we're rethinking how these things work nearly everything is worth a try.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2022, 03:27:59 PM »
https://www.r-g.de/art/390100
 Maybe not much help but this changed things for me. A diaphragm pump. No oil mist. The oil mist can be killer. Built in gauge and valve. Tiny, dosn't heat up. Quiet. I leave it running all night without a worry.
 It is slow at 6l/m but for the small stuff you will be doing it won't matter. I just added a T joiner and valve and suck most of the air out with a shop vac when I did SUPs.
 I do use the Easy Composite quick connectors. Not cheap but they work and don't leak.

I got a dual-head piston pump, but I got an oil bath pump intended for refrigeration work first and then spent a bunch of time making an oil separator stack to catch the mist and return it to the pump. Right about when I got it working perfectly the Gast pump showed up and I never used it again.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

finbox

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2022, 06:51:19 PM »
Hi,
I got a https://store.acpcomposites.com/rocker-300-vacuum-pump - Rocker 300 oil less vacuum pump last year - it has worked flawless. You can get it cheaper on amazon.

ACP also offers clips for the ends of vacuum tube bags , so no sticky tape needed https://store.acpcomposites.com/quick-lock-seals, also tube bags in various widths.

I purchased dry carbon from Composite Envisions- they also have prepreg https://compositeenvisions.com/product-category/composite-fabrics/pre-preg/ , they offer a variable cure rate prepreg. It indicates 6 month storage life at 40 F - so your beer refrigerator would work. They can also wet out any fabric to make it prepreg.


tarquin

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2022, 11:18:42 PM »
For the life of me I couldn't find those bag clips. I just made my own in the end.
 I actually threw the old oil pump away. I had covered everything in oil mist twice!
 Admin, wondering why you are buying from Easycomposits and not locally? They are super helpful.
 

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2022, 01:57:33 AM »
Those clips look fantastic.  Thanks!  I am getting those for sure. 

Tarquin, this was the best (really only suitable) prepreg oven I could find.  I love that it controls the pump (or two) and controls the cure cycles.  This is going to be fiddly enough so whatever I can automate, I am down with.  Do you know of an alternate or a local reseller for their oven and products?  I would be open to that for sure.  Once I am having the oven crated and shipped, the rest hardly changed the price.

Easy is claiming a specific prepreg for the out of autoclave process, which they say produces a cleaner finish.  I know, excellent marketing, but I thought I would start with as close to a known good process end to end before I start making the inevitable substitutions.  That way, when things go sideways, I will have less possible reasons (and will have a resource to email a pic to).  Their tech support guys are awesome, friendly and are as informative as their videos.

Their variable rate prepreg looks like an awesome option.  They wrote "This prepreg is vacuum-bag, platen press, and autoclave compatible".  I sent a question about this to see how they fare with this out of autoclave process.  Red or blue foils would be rad (although the colors need a little more heat).

« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 02:26:48 AM by Admin »

tarquin

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2022, 03:15:15 AM »
Don't know of a local, for you, dealer. I guess they would have mentioned it. I live in France.
 As I said they have always been super helpful with me. As you said at least you know you will get good help from them.
 

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2022, 03:41:43 AM »
Thanks dude.  I could only find small ovens or huge walk in stuff in the US and no small ones with internal pump attachments or any kind of pump control.  I was actually surprised by the reasonable oven price, so even with shipping it seems like a great value.  The prepreg is expensive so anything I can do to eliminate mistake waste is probably worth it.  The cure cycles are pretty exacting and I don't want to manually nurse temp ramps and the likes. 

Dontsink

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2022, 05:04:40 AM »
You could talk to this guy:
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Wing-Foiling/Wind-Wings/Axis-RadicallyShort--77mm-advanced-fuselage-prototype

His latest version is pretty close to what you are planning i think.

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Re: Something new?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2022, 05:44:16 AM »
Hi Guys,

I advanced this a bit today.  Removed some overkill loops, added some backsweep, subtle gull, and 2.5 degrees of progressive washout/flare at the tips from the visible control loop.  The fuse is a placeholder.  I am not sure exactly what Bill has in mind, but I like it.  My thought is that we can test and reduce until flex causes problems.  Some internal views (that is so fun) and measurements as well.  The wing is actually quite thin and high aspect.  It remains a work in progress.  I haven't done the wingtips yet.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2022, 06:06:16 AM by Admin »

 


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