`

Author Topic: Foil Madness  (Read 3552 times)

tarquin

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2022, 10:24:02 PM »
I love all those Easycomposit vids. I buy epoxy from them. Their laminating epoxy is cheap and really good. The guys are super helpful too. They always reply to my stupid questions within a day or two.
 They had to open a warehouse in the north of France because of Brexit. So I can get stuff from them in 2 days( that's fast for France).

tarquin

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2022, 11:54:10 PM »
As if by magic I just got an email from Easycomposits.
https://www.easycomposites.eu/learning/mouldless-carbon-fibre-aero-wing

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6130
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2022, 12:42:00 AM »
Tidy is absolutely my primary goal. Ovens are kind of easy, autoclaves in the composite sense generally get pressurized, sometimes a lot. That's a pretty little thing but it's not an autoclave. Still, that's very cool. and has a lot more capacity than a home oven. 1800 bucks, not bad.

Yes!  Out of Autoclave is a pretty confusing name.  That Xpreg stuff looks Amazing.  https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/xc110-210g-22-twill-3k-prepreg-carbon-fibre Great looking results with a vacuum oven only.  No Autoclave Prepreg would be a better name.  The vid below uses the Xpreg and has a bit of detail and the process looks much more manageable than any of the wet layup systems.  The vid Tarquin posted looks Amazing but that would drive me nuts.  Honestly, until yesterday, I thought all prepreg needed an autoclave.

I love the idea of a multipart printed wing laminated with a basically dry process straight into a bag in a suck oven with a vacuum controller.  How slick is that? 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfrFaKDsJxc

https://youtu.be/PMXrmvLpvhA
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 12:53:53 AM by Admin »

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6130
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2022, 02:30:36 AM »
Man is this sweet.  I took my most recent test file from Gravity sketch, still using a random foil section from online (could be any section or multiple sections, or...) and imported it into Bambu Studio scaled at 100% which I had set to 1000 mm Long by 135 mm wide.  This is a pretty high aspect deal but not uncommon.  I then sliced it into 3 pieces.  I just went with vertical cuts at 90 degrees but we can make cuts on any plane so we could easily increase glueable surface for better adhesion.  We could also probably interlock the sub parts or use carbon dowels, or...endless.  The software auto creates all of the new outer walls and 9 types of internal structures for the new sections (walls, infills, overhang supports, etc).  There are 20 stock options for sparse infills alone.  Holy Shit!  Below I isolated just the sparse infill layer that would be printed for the center section in three of the available options (grid, Tri Hex and lightning, yeah, that was basically just a "oh, yes we can").  Essentially, all layers are editable as well so you an really lighten things up a lot, or strengthen if needed.  We can also (where applicable)  print the individual layers in different filaments.  It will also allow us to print multiple segments at once and will auto arrange them on the plate for us.  Wowzers.  This is going to be fun!

PS: please pay no attention to the recessed area on my example. I was messing around with a lot of recessed shapes and I saved a stupid one.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 05:12:23 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25461
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2022, 07:04:52 AM »
This is a very familiar rabbit hole. Once you have a printer your guitar practice time will suffer, though there's plenty of waiting around if you only have one printer.

So far the best thing about the Bambu printer is that it's smarter than the operator. Most of the stuff I've had to do manually is handled. Well, that plus making the best-looking parts I've ever printed, being twice as fast as my old Enders and Prusa, and fixing mistakes on the fly. The first layer in a print is critical, but any screwups, like an inadequately supported overhang, can yield a pile of spaghetti that the printer just happily continues to build. Not only does the printer do perfect first layers, and tell me on my phone if there's a problem, but it also catches problems during the print and actually fixes some of them. Anything it can't fix it stops and yells for help, showing the problem on my phone. Next level is probably an overstatement, but it's damned good.

Prepreg is wonderful but expensive. I've done some car parts with it (and anything baked in our oven tasted a little weird for a few weeks). For parts that will fit in that oven, the cost isn't heart-stopping, but they can't be low value, large area. I also turned a small roll of prepreg that was supposed to be OK at room temperature into a very expensive, not-very-useful tube by ignoring it for a few weeks. I wouldn't jump into it without refrigerated storage. A cheap chest freezer modified with an external thermostat would probably be fine.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 07:14:43 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25461
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2022, 07:55:40 AM »
If this doesn't give you a stiffy then you're not sufficiently geeky. Brother Bob has a CAM router. It will be easy to get him excited about these projects (he's as nuts as I am) though we'd be shipping stuff back and forth to massatushits.

https://youtu.be/jsT561opKrU

This video is boring but incredibly valuable for bagging. I still struggle with getting a perfect seal, here are all the answers for anyone else who has the same problems.
https://youtu.be/2vEKODxJu7I
« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 07:58:28 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6130
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2022, 06:42:06 AM »
This is a very familiar rabbit hole. Once you have a printer your guitar practice time will suffer, though there's plenty of waiting around if you only have one printer.

So far the best thing about the Bambu printer is that it's smarter than the operator. Most of the stuff I've had to do manually is handled. Well, that plus making the best-looking parts I've ever printed, being twice as fast as my old Enders and Prusa, and fixing mistakes on the fly. The first layer in a print is critical, but any screwups, like an inadequately supported overhang, can yield a pile of spaghetti that the printer just happily continues to build. Not only does the printer do perfect first layers, and tell me on my phone if there's a problem, but it also catches problems during the print and actually fixes some of them. Anything it can't fix it stops and yells for help, showing the problem on my phone. Next level is probably an overstatement, but it's damned good.

Prepreg is wonderful but expensive. I've done some car parts with it (and anything baked in our oven tasted a little weird for a few weeks). For parts that will fit in that oven, the cost isn't heart-stopping, but they can't be low value, large area. I also turned a small roll of prepreg that was supposed to be OK at room temperature into a very expensive, not-very-useful tube by ignoring it for a few weeks. I wouldn't jump into it without refrigerated storage. A cheap chest freezer modified with an external thermostat would probably be fine.

Yes, this seems like a great time to get into this with a lot of the really fiddly stuff already worked out.   The slicing software alone is freaking brilliant! 

It is crazy to me what we can do now.  This morning I downloaded a new NACA profile, sent it to Gravity Sketch and used it to do a new 1008 x 192 front foil. Sent that to Bambu Studio and auto sliced it for print.  I tried a few different ways but here is the goofiest one that Bambu was OK with.  The image below is "mid print" so it shows the grid infill at this orientation but not the top surface of each sub part.  The print supports are also not shown. 

I am going to get that oven for prepreg or similar.  That sounds too fun to pass on.  They suggest bagging all prepreg at full vacuum so just under 30in/hg.  The concern is what is going to happen to our lovely print at that sucky sucky while baking at the suggested (peak cure temp) of 120 C.  The PA CF filament from Bambu has a VICAT temp of 210 C, Heat Deflection Temp of 160 C and Melting temp of 220 C.  That seems like enough headroom, but, we will see :).  We have a lot of things to try if we implode at first.  :). Once we have it worked out though, we can rapid test a shitload of designs for carbon core front and rear wings.  This is going to be fun! 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2022, 06:55:06 AM by Admin »

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6130
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2022, 03:16:54 AM »
In this video he mentions 8 hours at only 86 C so I am unsure why the 120 C is quoted now.  The part looks phenomenal and this would be a way more complex deal than a wrapped foil. 

This looks like a pretty manageable process.  I am stoked to try it.

https://youtu.be/cQ1Q4XmItN0?list=PL852iqhMMbWLMDEAIRKN6qkrZAbUayITH

tarquin

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2022, 07:19:28 AM »
A mate of mine is a rigger and he has been printing deck fittings for sail boats. They are scanning old bronze fittings and printing them in a plastic and aluminium mix. He said they are really strong and light. Maybe something like this would hold up better to the heat and pressure?
 

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6130
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2022, 08:02:33 AM »
A mate of mine is a rigger and he has been printing deck fittings for sail boats. They are scanning old bronze fittings and printing them in a plastic and aluminium mix. He said they are really strong and light. Maybe something like this would hold up better to the heat and pressure?

Thats really cool.  I am not sure if consumer printers will manage that but I will check.  I know that PEET is a super high temp filament but I don't think the consumer printers will melt it.  I have a feeling (hah!) we are going to be OK with the PA-CF stuff but I am fully expecting many failures :)

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25461
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2022, 09:06:31 AM »
You don't have to own a high-end printer, there are lots of printing facilities using advanced materials and tech. I was corresponding with one that does laser-sintered titanium ceramic. If worse comes to worst there are lots of lights-out automated machine shops that will make about anything you want for a few hundred bucks. As I recall, some of the guys in the Faux Drive group were using some to make aluminum folding props. I'll probably have to go that way eventually, my PC and PC/CF ones are flying apart at higher RPM.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6130
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2022, 09:49:26 AM »
You don't have to own a high-end printer, there are lots of printing facilities using advanced materials and tech. I was corresponding with one that does laser-sintered titanium ceramic. If worse comes to worst there are lots of lights-out automated machine shops that will make about anything you want for a few hundred bucks. As I recall, some of the guys in the Faux Drive group were using some to make aluminum folding props. I'll probably have to go that way eventually, my PC and PC/CF ones are flying apart at higher RPM.

That is a solid backup plan if plan A fails.  :)

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25461
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2022, 10:53:47 AM »
If/when I get rid of a bunch of motorcycles and move the rest to either one of my containers or another part of the shop I could devote the front wall of my shop to this kind of fabrication stuff. The shop has wiring in place to power massive stone-cutting and polishing machinery. It will take a little time to set up, but having 3D printing, laser cutting, prepreg freezer, and oven all in one place sounds like a nice setup to me.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

tarquin

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2022, 12:01:33 PM »
 Yes he is getting a company to do it as Pono said. He dosn't have a printer.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25461
    • View Profile
Re: Foil Madness
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2022, 08:33:37 PM »
Printer tech is getting insane--sprinting off into uncharted territory. SpaceX is printing the most critical parts of the Raptor engines. People have been talking for some time about the possibility of 3D printing alloys and mixtures that would be impossible to cast or forge because the differential densities of the components would cause them to separate. I thought it was still sort of theoretical. It's not. I started digging this morning and found an entire range of printers and printing tech that prints unobtanium and impossibilium without breaking a sweat.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2022, 08:47:34 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


* Recent Posts

post Re: Dave Daum Build Series - Foilboard Construction A to Z - Q & A
[The Shape Shack]
tarquin
Today at 12:18:13 AM
post 2020
[General Discussion]
AndrewTauSh
Today at 12:11:15 AM
post Re: Heading to Maui next week…….
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
PonoBill
December 03, 2022, 10:39:26 PM
post Re: Another revelation about the Barricuda style Kalama board!
[Foil SUP]
Beasho
December 03, 2022, 07:27:28 PM
post Re: Heading to Maui next week…….
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
JohnnyTsunami
December 03, 2022, 05:03:20 PM
post Re: New Winging specific boards from Naish.
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
Badger
December 03, 2022, 03:46:30 PM
post Re: Heading to Maui next week…….
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
John65
December 03, 2022, 02:29:42 PM
post Re: New Winging specific boards from Naish.
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
Solent Foiler
December 03, 2022, 02:28:42 PM
post Re: Dave Daum Build Series - Foilboard Construction A to Z - Q & A
[The Shape Shack]
JohnnyTsunami
December 03, 2022, 12:42:36 PM
post Re: Heading to Maui next week…….
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
PonoBill
December 03, 2022, 11:49:32 AM
post Heading to Maui next week…….
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
John65
December 03, 2022, 10:50:56 AM
post Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
blueplanetsurf
December 03, 2022, 10:26:35 AM
post Re: One Fine Day
[Random]
daswusup
December 03, 2022, 06:28:05 AM
post Re: Plastic Buckles
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
tj_boof
December 03, 2022, 05:08:14 AM
post Re: Something new?
[Foil SUP]
tarquin
December 03, 2022, 04:21:38 AM
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2022, SimplePortal