Author Topic: Swim Missiles  (Read 8999 times)

Admin

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Swim Missiles
« on: October 18, 2022, 04:36:13 AM »
Hi Guys,

Stoked to be getting started on something new.  I have been enjoying a lot of pool time this year and I want to move that into the beautiful outdoors and make better use of our Gorge waters.  Roll Columbia!  Chan wants to keep me company so we are having two swim missiles shaped :). The basic idea is a reduced prone paddleboard with foil tracks.  I wont be standing or kneeling at all, so these will be belly boards.  My goal is to have them be as fast paddling as possible with no real standing balance or leg pumping requirements.  When/where foiling is possible, that will all need to be done with arm power, board and foil efficiency, and swell assistance.  I do think and hope that some pumping assist will be possible (once foiling) with arms and upper body motion, but the extent of that remains to be seen.  I don't envision 18 minute foiling stretches but any foiling glides sound like a great bonus right now.  This will all be fast in comparison to my 1.5 MPH in the pool :).  Flat water cruising sounds fun as well. 

The Axis 1310 is what I am leaning towards on a 75 carbon mast with a standard Fuse. Axis guys (Evan and James) suggested those for my purpose.  Open to opinions.

The smile at the end of the last clip has me stoked.  I am hoping we can get there with improved design and somewhat less scramble.  Anyways, here goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tvNaN6XehI&list=PL852iqhMMbWICtOAUgPaACurDd0EyJZsO&index=1
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 04:39:14 AM by Admin »

tarquin

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2022, 05:25:37 AM »
Maybe a longer Barricuda style board will be easier to get up on the foil ? If you are making 2 boards try 2 different designs maybe.

jkseattle

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2022, 08:08:51 PM »
Admin - messaged you :). Also, check out Sam's IG page:  @supcommitted
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 08:12:25 PM by jkseattle »

Califoilia

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2022, 09:17:53 PM »
Sounds like the perfect scenario for a Foil Drive to get you moving and up flying.
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2022, 02:34:20 AM »
Thanks a lot guys. 

Tarquin, yes, longer for sure.  My legs no longer cooperate and I am not able to kick.  I swim with a pull bouy to keep them afloat, so I will need the extra length for swim speed and to support my legs.

JKSeattle,  Great to hear that prone arm/body pumping is possible and useful to maintain glides.  I would love to see any videos of prone pumping.  I really dig the boogie style of board that Sam is riding on his insta. That looks super fun (even if not for me).  I want to check out your page as well (waiting for confirmation).  Could you tell me where you guys like the front foil positioned (center of lift) in relation to your prone body.  It seems like mid torso would be right, but I would love to hear what you have found.

I had reached out to Dave Daum at Kings for this.  I was particularly drawn to his mix of prone paddleboard shaping and foil sport design/shaping/building experience.  I had seen a few of his prone paddleboards on his site, liked them a lot,  and wanted to try a modified version for this use.  He used one of those (open ocean prone paddleboard) files as a start point for this build. 

I feel like for my needs the primary factor needs to be fast and easy swimming.  To me that means what I call a displacement board (may not be the best term for it) but essentially the opposite of a planing hull.  Stability is much less of a concern due my perma-prone status and a super wide foil underneath.  I wanted to keep the max width at a comfortable hand width for control and hopefully pumping.  We are going to add in some long upper rail indents for finger grips once everything else is positioned.  18 inches feels really good to me.  Kind of a push up width.  I don't think I could grip well narrower.  Dave's 12 foot prone paddleboard https://www.kingspaddlesports.com/collections/prone-paddle-boards/products/paddleboard-12-stock notes common widths in the mid 17 inch to mid 20 inch range so that also fits.  Length is a bit of a guess.  Long is fast, but I know I don't want a 12 foot foiler, but how short can maintain swimming slickness?  We penned in 8 feet.  Dave adjusted thickness to set the deck (with my weight) about 1.5 inches above the waterline.  That is currently at about 5.5 inches.  Chan's will be downsized again for a much narrower width, her lighter weight, etc.

We did an initial rough in design session to get started.  So cool to be able to do this live from different states!  I was shocked that Dave could condense my ramblings into a cool initial modification of his design in that time.
 Nothing is smoothed or sorted yet and the foil box position is just a placeholder.  The contours come from Dave's prone paddleboard shape and have been downsized to 8 x 18 x 4.6.  The aspect ratio obviously changed. With that start Dave is going to massage out the oddities and see where we land. 

Stoked to be underway!

« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 05:08:56 AM by Admin »

Admin

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2022, 02:45:00 AM »
It looks like the bottom has a center channel but it won't.  It will be softly rounded aside from the eventual box area itself, which will be flat and level with the deck.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 02:52:15 AM by Admin »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2022, 04:28:53 AM »
If it was me, Id be prone surfing the Lift e-foil and ripping up the hatchery. You could have a glass shop make a leg extension to the stock board.

Ive got a buddy who bought one. Hes at my surf spot all the time, making it look way more fun than it should be. Hes ripping waves off throttle, prop folded. Hes obsessed. Multiple small batteries for performance. Im jealous of him. I see myself owning one someday, probably.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2022, 04:33:23 AM by Dwight (DW) »

Hdip

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2022, 09:11:55 AM »
It might be worth asking Foilwithme about his prone downwind board. He hates SUP, so this is what he uses. I think he's having decent success with it.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cin5GrqvIpc/

Dusk Patrol

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2022, 10:00:37 AM »
Accessorize : )
RS 14x26; JL Destroyers 9'8 & 8'10; BluePlanet 9'4; JL SF 8'6

PonoBill

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2022, 11:41:44 AM »
Very cool. If you want to try a motor let me know. I'm building a foildrive clone and an eFoil with the drive set in the upper middle of the mast so the drive can be lifted out of the water on foil, but is still deep enough to control in eFoil mode. I think for a prone board like this the best location would be very close to the board with a good shroud to keep it from Julienning your nether regions. But I can build about anything and I have lots of spare parts (and I can pump out the mounts on my 3D printers).

Great choice going with Dave Daum. He has all the design expertise of Mark Raaphorst with the added benefit of a production-level shop. As you well know Mark could build this beautifully but you'd be substantially older before you see the board.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

surfcowboy

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2022, 05:57:13 PM »
I'm backing this 200%. And yeah, add some electricity. It'll make the runs longer. You can attach the remote to the deck and not have to hold it. I dig it.

Eventually it'll just be boost buttons on a box on the deck.

tarquin

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2022, 11:03:03 PM »
https://www.scubajet.com/shop/accessories/scubajet-pro-overwater-kit/
 I still think these are cool. I know I mentioned it before and blue planet did a review but I think that was the older 500w version. The 1000w version should have more than enough power to help get up. It also keeps everything under the board. I am pretty sure it has a safety function that turns the motor off when it comes out of the water. Perfect for foiling. Set the throttle at 70-80%, what ever you need and forget about it
 I still have an idea of adding small foils to the front of a 14ft SUP.  With a small T-foil rear fin. This would create stability and allow you to go narrower. Not actually get foiling but add some lift and stability. Would the extra drag of the foils be compensated by a narrower board?
 Anyhow back on subject, maybe 2 small L foils at 45( or whatever the optimal angle is) up forward would help lift you out. It would create lift forward to begin giving the main foil a bigger AOA to help you get up on the foil ??? These with a scuba jet underneath should have you popping up on the foil easily????
 You could easily make 2 L foils out of 1 long high aspect front wing.

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2022, 02:44:22 AM »
Hi Guys,

Thanks.  I have been following the motorized side of things with interest.  The options look fantastic and I would love to try some.  For me that would be an also, not a rather than for now.  The pickin's are getting a little slim for things that both stir my blood and are a great workout.  I think we have all become addicts to that combo and the post-session buzz that these sports serve up. 

I love the idea (no guarantee that it will work) of showing up to an empty lot, unloading a full carbon spear, and swimming a few miles of uncrowded Gorge full of flats, upwind, downwind, mellow bumps, bigger bumps, and hopefully some foiling glides.  If I were a politician I'd call it, freedom boarding :).

I talked with Dave Daum again yesterday and we looked of his finessed versions of our concept.  They look awesome to me.  Dave makes Shape 3D sing and it is really fun to watch (I hesitate to call it participate in) the process.  I'll post those, and the details of carbon construction he is going to use, soon.  The best part is, we will have two sizes to test at very different volumes, and if we missed on certain elements (likely), we will have the files available to iterate. 

I am super impressed by what everyone is doing with foils these days and I have enjoyed seeing the progress on all of those purpose built designs.  I am approaching this from a perspective of swimming, prone paddleboarding and bump chasing.  A set of arms and a wind generated Gorge swell is pretty well the lowest power scenario I know of for bump catching or foiling.  Yes, in my dreams, these are massive foilers and swell missiles, but in reality I will be stoked with much more mundane pleasures.  Anyone who has experienced a whipped up Gorge knows that just being out there is magical.  I have been missing that.  The process of getting geared up for a reentry has me fully juiced.  That alone is worth the price of admission.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2022, 03:11:32 AM by Admin »

jkseattle

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2022, 12:36:25 PM »
Will be following your board design and build closely as I'm interested in a similar thing for Puget Sound Dw's.  One thing to pay attention to will be where you put your arms and hands when up on foil.  When paddling, it's easy w/ a narrow board to just have them over the sides like a prone paddle board.  Once flying, you may want some form of handhold or handle to be able to control the nose (which will be a lot longer than a boogie foil) and steer.  On my board, it's wide enough and has a blunt nose so I can just grip it or the rails.  One of my custom boards that Sam helped design has 3 handles:  two at the rails and one on the nose.  Those help for steering as well also provide something to grip and carry the board which is not light w/ the foil on.
I'd imagine your foil mast will be in the last 1/4 of the board but not too close to the tail since it'll have a lot of nose length.  In looking at photos of Sam and myself, the mast is usually under our thighs, with the majority of our body leaning forward.  On your design, the extra length will be nice for paddle speed and getting up quickly.  Once up in the air tho, it may be more conducive to longer, drawn out turns vs quick carves due to swing wt.
On boogie foil, since almost all of our lower body is off the board (in air), we end up raising our legs to provide leverage and force the weight to shift forward.  You can also pump & shift weight by lifting and lowering legs.  Sorry, I don't have any video of that (mostly use a mouth-mount GoPro). 
Agree with all that power-assisted flight would be cool!  And a way to get back in case there's no shuttle. 


bigmtn

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Re: Swim Missiles
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2022, 03:56:19 PM »

I am super impressed by what everyone is doing with foils these days and I have enjoyed seeing the progress on all of those purpose built designs.  I am approaching this from a perspective of swimming, prone paddleboarding and bump chasing.  A set of arms and a wind generated Gorge swell is pretty well the lowest power scenario I know of for bump catching or foiling.  Yes, in my dreams, these are massive foilers and swell missiles, but in reality I will be stoked with much more mundane pleasures.  Anyone who has experienced a whipped up Gorge knows that just being out there is magical.  I have been missing that.  The process of getting geared up for a reentry has me fully juiced.  That alone is worth the price of admission.

This whole project sounds fun. Haha next summer Admin is going to be doing Swim Missile tours in the Gorge.  I'd sign up for a session. 
Stoked for you. You'll prob need to go to Maui and do some Maliko testing with Pono this winter.

 


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