Author Topic: Board shape with HA foils  (Read 4482 times)

SurfIC

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Board shape with HA foils
« on: September 10, 2022, 06:19:28 AM »
I've been winging for the past 2 years. I'm strapless mainly in waves/open ocean. Not interested in jumping just surf and downwinding. I'm around 80kg and use Naish Hover 75L. I have been using a mid ar gong foil for the last 8 months and can get going on most conditions. Changed to a 9 ar 1250 and love the glide and speed. However it clearly needs a slightly different take off routine which I'm sure I will dial in relatively quickly.

My question is the newer board shapes with the cut off tail.  supposedly aid take offs with ha foils - do they work? Is it easier?

My Hover is the orange one which has been superb but it's definitely not current on terms of board design
78kgs
Wing - Naish 5' 75L
Foil - Gong Veloce MT 1050cm, 78cm, LT 1350cm 90cm
Mantis V2 5m, 4m
Naish Matador 6m
------------
Sup - Sic Manta 6' 105L
Foil Gong Fluid XXLS

burchas

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2022, 10:06:46 AM »
Some of the newer shapes definitely work better than but I wouldn't hang it on any single feature.

Three new shapes I've just tested all worked really well with HA foils:

- SlingShot Wing Craft V2 4'9 x 25.5 x 80L
- Fanatic Sky Style TE 4'11 x 23.5 x 75
- F-one Rocket wing V3 5' x 23 x 60L / 5'3 x 25 x 75

The Slingshot was the most stable and had faster acceleration but was
harder to get the perfect trim.

The fanatic had fast acceleration and was more sensitive to mast
position but very easy to get comfortable and find the right trim.

The F-one was smoother moving through the water, had gradual acceleration
fairly easy take-off and easy trim but a lot less sensitive to mast position.

This is hardly a comprehensive review and I'm just an average foiler but I
think the fact I was able to quickly get comfortable and ride those boards
and foils I've never tried before speak for it self in regard to these shapes.

for reference I'm 87kg currently. Hope that helps
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 10:11:01 AM by burchas »
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SurfIC

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2022, 11:00:31 AM »
Thanks for the response and yes it helps. I prefer narrow boards (the fone and fanatic) and feel perhaps this may also aid speed to get up. I love the look of the Kalama E3s which I know are downwind specific but a similar design for winging in waves would be cool.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2022, 11:12:12 AM by SurfIC »
78kgs
Wing - Naish 5' 75L
Foil - Gong Veloce MT 1050cm, 78cm, LT 1350cm 90cm
Mantis V2 5m, 4m
Naish Matador 6m
------------
Sup - Sic Manta 6' 105L
Foil Gong Fluid XXLS

PonoBill

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2022, 12:10:18 PM »
Thanks for the response and yes it helps. I prefer narrow boards (the fone and fanatic) and feel perhaps this may also aid speed to get up. I love the look of the Kalama E3s which I know are downwind specific but a similar design for winging in waves would be cool.

Several folks in Maui are using the Kalama E3 shape for winging and love it.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2022, 01:09:50 PM »
I think itís important if you are going to be struggling to get on foil in light wind at the limit of your gear. How often does the wind drop and your only chance to avoid a mile paddle is pumping up in a light gust? If thatís the case I find a no tail kick board is indispensable. I noticed my 95L fanatic flat tail was better than my 105L fone that had a tail kick. Just before planing/getting on foil the kick would drag in the water. I then shaped a 70L board with the same rear width and hard edges as the fanatic and it gets going just as easily.

If you ride a sinker you wonít be able to get the sinker up on the surface to worry about the tail shape unless you have enough wind to get it foiling regardless of the shape, if that makes sense.

If you have plenty of wind it doesnít matter. I think the tail kick boards may get going from 0-5knots more easily like a boat/canoe hence their popularity for DW SUP foiling with big foils. I pump the board to get over the initial drag of the straight tail thatís under the water in light air.

But Iím no expert.

SurfIC

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2022, 01:26:51 AM »
Some of the newer shapes definitely work better than but I wouldn't hang it on any single feature.

Three new shapes I've just tested all worked really well with HA foils:

- SlingShot Wing Craft V2 4'9 x 25.5 x 80L
- Fanatic Sky Style TE 4'11 x 23.5 x 75
- F-one Rocket wing V3 5' x 23 x 60L / 5'3 x 25 x 75

The Slingshot was the most stable and had faster acceleration but was
harder to get the perfect trim.

The fanatic had fast acceleration and was more sensitive to mast
position but very easy to get comfortable and find the right trim.

The F-one was smoother moving through the water, had gradual acceleration
fairly easy take-off and easy trim but a lot less sensitive to mast position.

This is hardly a comprehensive review and I'm just an average foiler but I
think the fact I was able to quickly get comfortable and ride those boards
and foils I've never tried before speak for it self in regard to these shapes.

for reference I'm 87kg currently. Hope that helps

I've always though short stubby boards = slow planing. Longer slender = faster planing.

Looking at the 3 boards you tested all of which I'm considering this doesn't seem to be the case? I'm after a 70/75 L one board quiver which has really early planing with ha foils. Yesterday I got caught on the inside in the impact zone and could have done with a quicker board as the wind was marginal. My current board which I love is Naish Hover 75L 5' 24". I just don't think it planes particularly early although as I can't test boards it may just be me!! Any thoughts anyone..
78kgs
Wing - Naish 5' 75L
Foil - Gong Veloce MT 1050cm, 78cm, LT 1350cm 90cm
Mantis V2 5m, 4m
Naish Matador 6m
------------
Sup - Sic Manta 6' 105L
Foil Gong Fluid XXLS

StellaBlu

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2022, 06:11:20 AM »
The hard edged tail cleans up release of flow at the back of the board and makes the hull more efficient, resulting in more speed.  It also serves to increase the effective length of the board (vs a ramped tail) which will flatten the board on the surface and generate speed.

I'm definitely not a board design whiz, but based on my understanding there are a few concepts getting tangled here.  Planing speed doesn't really have an impact on foil takeoff.  Speed is what impacts foil takeoff.  Even if a board planes, the foil takeoff speed is likely going to be lower than that planing speed.  There are boards that will plane at a lower speed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they will takeoff easier.  There are boards that will never plane (barracuda), but their efficiency makes them faster and that speed is what will get you onto foil.  With a HA foil you are generally just looking for speed (vs acceleration on a lower aspect foil).

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2022, 10:42:59 AM »
My current board which I love is Naish Hover 75L 5' 24". I just don't think it planes particularly early although as I can't test boards it may just be me!! Any thoughts anyone..

The kick on that board is good with older, slower, thicker foils. Itís also draggy, and hurts you when switching to fast HA foils, that need a faster board.

There are two paths to look into. The full planing focused bottoms, do in fact, accelerate like rock ships. Making extremely small HA foils, much easier to reach their needed flight speed. The second path is a Kalama style bottom. While the Kalama bottom doesnít exactly accelerate like a rock ship, it does get moving with less horsepower from your wing ding. More obvious, the more confused the water conditions. This is when the Kalama outshines other bottoms. Itís probably the easiest, most natural, take off onto foil experience.

When the Crissy Field crew descended on the Gorge this summer, every single one of them (that I saw) had a Mikes Lab foil and a flat planning bottomed custom board. All identical in appearance to what Johnny Heineken rides. There must have been at least 8 to 10 of them in the Gorge. Mike Z. (Mikeís Lab) was with the crew. 600sq cm foils are becoming standard with these people. The boards work.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 10:53:38 AM by Dwight (DW) »

cnski

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2022, 02:48:32 PM »
Ya and the smaller the foil the easier it is to reach the needed flight speed because of the reduced drag under the water. It's the board/foil combo driving this whole progression. The ML 600 is marginally harder to get foiling than the ML 800. My friend just got the ML 540 and said he was able to pop right onto foil and had no issues riding it. He weighs 205 lbs. Haven't tried that one yet but hope to soon.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 02:51:03 PM by cnski »

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2022, 11:35:25 PM »
Search instagram for ken_adgate. He makes the best boards on the planet (for friends only) and +90% of them for +10AR Mike's Lab foils and 0% of them have a tail kick, but he works on other design aspects like concave and tail shape.

+1

I had a fun experience today. I switched my board with my friend's on the water. Mine is a DIY 4'8" x 23" board (page 3 https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,37938.30.html) with an old 600cm ML on a tuttle. His DIY board is longer and heavier and narrower with an axis 1099 and aluminum mast. Neither board had a tail kick.

The 1099 board was much harder to start. You needed more power in the wing. The drag was ridiculous - having ridden tuttle boards for the whole season I was taken aback. Not really board specific info, but just FYI. It may have been a lack of rocker as well.

I thought he'd have trouble getting my small foil going, but he was up and foiling and grinning and shaking his head before I could figure out his setup.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 11:38:04 PM by JohnnyTsunami »

SurfIC

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2022, 07:26:35 AM »
From reading people's thoughts above I'm more interested in using small HA foils (having just started using HA foils) than I am am small sinker or semi sinker boards. My wind is often on/off, gusty and often 12 to 18 knots. I also don't iump. With this in mind I'm going to change my board (Naish 75L for my 80kg) for a board that will aid early release. Do you think a bit more volume will also help? I'm comfortable in any wind with -5. I could get -10 (70L) or = (80L).
78kgs
Wing - Naish 5' 75L
Foil - Gong Veloce MT 1050cm, 78cm, LT 1350cm 90cm
Mantis V2 5m, 4m
Naish Matador 6m
------------
Sup - Sic Manta 6' 105L
Foil Gong Fluid XXLS

surfcowboy

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2022, 09:13:28 AM »
As a guy who just went pretty narrow (22.5") I'd offer that if you have to stand around waiting on gusts make sure you can stand comfortably.

I'm making a low wind board that's 24" wide for my 62kg to make gust hunting easier.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2022, 03:25:50 AM »
Well, looky here!

Heineken on a KA built Kalama style board.

https://youtu.be/6kjkd3VucPY

burchas

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2022, 04:27:25 PM »
When I saw this board for the first time I could have sworn I've seen him ride very similar shape of kite foil racing board.
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Dontsink

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Re: Board shape with HA foils
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2022, 11:03:34 PM »
When I saw this board for the first time I could have sworn I've seen him ride very similar shape of kite foil racing board.

I think kitefoil raceboards have a very parallel outline with almost no pinching at the tail.
However i remember an interview with D.Kalama in which he mentioned copying the shape of race kiteboards because they workrd real well for winging...but this was in Kalama E1 times and way before Barracuda etc...

 


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