Author Topic: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast  (Read 1511 times)

Beasho

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Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« on: July 27, 2022, 09:24:50 AM »
I bought and finally used my Axis 105 cm mast, 41 inches, for Winging.

The benefits were:

1) You will never breach - Since you were likely used to shorter masts

2) You can comfortably go faster.  This is related to #1 because regardless of the chop size you can blast through without fear of faceplant.  This will likely be beneficial in more open ocean situations. 

3) You can point upwind higher.  Your 'fin' is longer and/or you can heel the board further to windward meaning you can use the foil to generate lift rather than just the mast. 

Downside is weight, drag and increased stability.  However you could potentially use smaller tails due to the increased stability of the longer mast.

You also need to go deeper to get clear.  105 cm is pretty long.

OTHER EXPERIENCES?

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2022, 09:30:56 AM »
Heeled over screaming upwind requires a big mast to keep your wing tips submerged. I ride a 102, 104. My axis stuff I just keep for prone 86, 96.

Winging in the ocean in California requires a huge mast as the chop is 3+ft every day just about so going upwind over breaking wind chop is extremely difficult without a huge mast and even then very hard.

If Iím trying to glide as much as possible Iíll just ride it high.

I think there are two downsides:

1. Hitting the bottom (not an issue where I go)
2. Turns are more drawn out, but you can do more powerful bigger turns
3. Flex - donít get a crappy big mast and keep the foil small so the forces stay smaller.

Solent Foiler

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2022, 11:47:49 AM »
I used to run a 100cm mast and the main reason I don't anymore is the additional lag you feel when making turns. The longer mast means the board has to travel further in the roll axis to initiate a turn.

Also, the longer mast tends to mean using a bigger stab to overcome the additional leverage from the bigger distance from the power source (the wing) and the foil. KDW mentioned this in a podcast a little while ago.

I overcome the upwind heel issue of using a shorter (85cm) mast by having narrow boards, which gives you the room back to keep the board out of the water while keeping the foil in the water.

They are also harder to pump, keep the foil far away from the surface making it less efficient and the additional drag to get going in marginal conditions is not insignificant. I switch to a 68 mast on the 1099 in the light to counter all of this as well as stiffening up the system to make it more direct.

Long masts have a place (especially if you're gunning for speed) but that extra room for manoeuvre/comfort sure comes with a lot of draw backs to me. I too ride in pretty choppy water, but I make the 85 work well enough upwind and enjoy the downwind more on it. This is all on ART foils as well as my Gong.
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
Swift Foil Boards custom 4'10 x 19.5" 35L
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Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm and 65cm mast
Takuma RS 5.1, 4.3, 3.5
[Duotone Slick 3m, 4m, 5m]

jondrums

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2022, 11:52:41 AM »
Your comment about a narrow board rings true for me.

Blasting upwind heeled over requires EITHER a long mast OR a narrow board (or of course the right combination of the two).    I haven't tried a 90+ mast, so I can't say from experience.  But from thinking about it I would probably go the narrow board direction first.

EDIT - the other variable is foil wingspan, so that's another variable.  I love high aspect wings, so I'm not planning to go narrow on the wing anytime soon, but its another option.  Narrow board, narrow wingspan instead of long mast.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 12:15:15 PM by jondrums »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2022, 06:01:01 PM »
  However you could potentially use smaller tailsÖ.


Kane (kdmaui) says just the opposite. The increased lever arm of the taller mast, requires the tail to work harder. Once he said this, I tried more tail when riding the 96cm mast and it stopped me riding nose low when using it. I immediately liked the 96 more.

I have since settled on 90 as the best all around mast for me winging, just because it still surfs well and doesnít step into the awkward zone of the longer masts. In the Gorge 90 worked well. No breaches. Itís been working well in east coast surf too. Where you ride is another planet.

surfcowboy

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2022, 07:52:32 AM »
In SoCal 85-90cm for winging seems to be the go to. The extra height in chop is for sure a luxury. Just aim and go!

Velasco

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2022, 11:06:12 PM »
I normally ride an 85cm Project Cedrus mast (total height is 89cm with base plate and adapter/fuselage all bolted on).  Pulling upwind, jibing hard onto peaking waves and jumping are all fun on this mast height.

Then I started doing downwinders this past weekend (Saturday practice run from Hawaii Kai to Kaimana Beach Park; then the Bluewater Classic race on Sunday).  I needed a taller mast - going 22mph downwind (really broad reaching - there are no wings that like going DDW while almost matching wind speed, so you need some wind in the wing) - everything gets pretty critical and having another 10 to 15 cm on the mast would have made it easier for me.

I don't think I'd use a mast taller than 90 if I was staying above my launch point (holding my line), but for downwinders, I'll bolt on as long a mast as I can get my hands on.

EastCoastFoiler

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2022, 04:46:09 AM »
I'll give an opposite take...i run a super small mast and i love it.  I run a 68cm (26.5) mast on my GoFoil RS 1000 for both prone and ding and its excelent.  I find its super fast turning and i can whip into turns better than most.  Its a good fit for the smaller span front wing (RS1000 is pretty short mid aspetct and is my 100% wing for prone and ding)...I'm big at 215 lbs but very physical in my riding and power generation.

I always ran the small mast prone for the turns, stiffness, and direct feel and i assumed i'd have to move to the bigger mast (29.5) for ding and prone and still be comprimised on the ding.  After a few months on the ding i've really dialed my style to the short mast and i love it and its given me a really unique style, there's nobody at the local who rides like me.

The good - All turns all the time, Active, Dynamic, Lots of feedback from the wave, whippier turns, more direct feel.

The bad - Reacting to all that feedback is tiring, doing that number of turns is tiring, doesn't want to go for long tacks(goes upwind fine but i have a hard time hooking in for a long one).  Its EXHAUSTING(which I personally LOVE but probably bad for most).  The ding is way more work than Prone.  I can only really keep at my full pace for maybe 2 hours max.

Do you want to feel the movement of the ocean and react to it more?..go smaller...
Do you want to feel like your riding on an invisible traintrack just under the surface?...go bigger.


clay

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2022, 12:20:41 PM »
winging been on 105 for a couple years.  Tried 90 the other day on multiple foils and hated it, no noticeable benefit and had safety foil to keep the wing in the water.

I suspect me being tall with long iimbs and big feet gives me more leverage to influence bigger gear.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

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Beasho

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2022, 01:03:59 PM »
Do you want to feel the movement of the ocean and react to it more?..go smaller...
Do you want to feel like your riding on an invisible traintrack just under the surface?...go bigger.

Good feedback.  I agree and use a 68 cm Mast when SUP Foiling.  The increased twitchyness has me pumping around like a 20 year old.  The small 30 cm (12") tail also adds to the instability AKA turning and control.

Kane DeWilde won the Maui to Molokai and discussed the benefits of a 72 cm vs. 82 cm in his discussion with James Casey after 1) Trashing his 82 cm mast and 2) having to go to 72 cm.  Extra stiffness . . . here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHu_DYd7Jg&t=997s 

My appreciation for the 105 cm came when I used it Wing Foiling in short period 4 foot death chop on the US East Coast.  The extra length just cruises through without worry.

At home in Half Moon Bay I SUP foil surf in and around Mavericks.  I graduated from a 29" Mast to the Axis 90 cm (36") and taking off on bigger waves with chop I never ever breached.  My brain still treated the mast like it was 6" shorter.  This was a 'life saver' because when the waves are 10 to 18 feet there can be significant moguls on the face and breaching at >20 mph on a big scary face is extremely unpleasant.   
 
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 01:29:07 PM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2022, 01:10:48 PM »
winging been on 105 for a couple years.

Clay - You were the one who motivated me to go 105 cm.  You said "You will never ever breach."  I learned the other two benefits (going fast and pointing upwind) with experience.

If you watch the videos from Hawaii the wingers, aka Alex Aguera and his possy, are often seen riding long masts as well.  It's hard to argue with that crew. 

surfcowboy

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2022, 07:58:20 AM »
It's def conditions. In CA we have the "death chop" you mention and when the swell is running it's chest to head high with smaller chop around it. My 72 just makes me slap the bottom of my board and constantly hear my tips and tail breaching which makes me react, as Clay said.

If I could run shorter I'll bet I could. Ok, finally going to order that 90cm I've been meaning to get today (or do I use this 82 I have now...) Argh!! Decisions. Better DM Hdip and one of the Bills 40 or 50 times.

jrobmaui

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Re: Benefits of Long >> 1 Meter (39 inch) Mast
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2022, 09:25:07 AM »
So I didn't imagine it?  Longer mast causes more inertia in turning? 

Recently bought 100cm after struggling with chop on the 72cm.  Still a stubborn beginner, my jibe attempts went from sketchy to horrible.  About halfway through the jibe it felt like an invisible hand pushing me back the other way.  Went back to the 72 on the flat water venue and all was back to "normal."

I think I read in this forum that there was an adjustment required to go to longer mast but had no idea.






 


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