Author Topic: 3d printing for wing foiling  (Read 2621 times)

randomfoiler

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2022, 08:28:50 AM »

Quote
I was using a +1 (adding lift) with my 1440 and 1095 (using a KD13.5 on both).  Just went to a +0.5 (adding lift) and while its a little faster, I might like the added grip of the +1 more - jury is still out.  FWIW, I've also shortened my fuse about 0.75" which I find carves nicer.  In theory the shorter fuse should also impact lift, but I don't think I noticed that aspect very much.

Did you move your mast forward a little when going from +1 to +0.5? I had to move it forward every time I went more negative (removing lift)

randomfoiler

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2022, 08:33:14 AM »
Hi, Thank you so much for sharing these. I printed the takuma shims and they are session (life) changing :) The F-one "handle" works really well, too.
Big thank you from Canada.

Awesome, I'm glad it's been useful.  It's also good to hear that I'm not the only one with a Takuma foil, F-one wing, and a 3d printer :).   I just got a 1440 and used it for the very first time today.  I'm still getting used to it, it feels more locked in than I'm used too so I was trying different tails to try to loosen it up.  I tried swapping in a Unifoil race stabilizer chopped down to 14" and the 178 tail.  It felt faster and easier to turn with the Unifoil but still very locked in, the 178 felt looser and it's probably the one I liked the most.  But I'll probably chop the unifoil tail down another inch or two and see how that does.

I like a +0.5 or +1.0 degree shim on my 1095+178.

Did you try the 1440 with the 220 and negative shims? I stopped at -2.0 ... it got faster and looser every time.
Do you think I could go beyond -2.0? - or stepping down to the 178 stab will be the better option?

StellaBlu

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2022, 09:04:52 AM »

Quote
I was using a +1 (adding lift) with my 1440 and 1095 (using a KD13.5 on both).  Just went to a +0.5 (adding lift) and while its a little faster, I might like the added grip of the +1 more - jury is still out.  FWIW, I've also shortened my fuse about 0.75" which I find carves nicer.  In theory the shorter fuse should also impact lift, but I don't think I noticed that aspect very much.

Did you move your mast forward a little when going from +1 to +0.5? I had to move it forward every time I went more negative (removing lift)

I didn't move it forward.  I was isolating the variables and it didn't feel too back footed with the 0.5 vs the 1, so if I moved it (which in theory I should have), it would have been extremely minor if anything.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2022, 09:16:58 AM by StellaBlu »

gyre

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2022, 10:51:34 PM »

Did you try the 1440 with the 220 and negative shims? I stopped at -2.0 ... it got faster and looser every time.
Do you think I could go beyond -2.0? - or stepping down to the 178 stab will be the better option?

That's a good question, I have no idea what the tradeoff are between smaller tails and shimming.  I used the 1440 for about 15 minutes before swapping in a smaller tail, I'll try shimming the 220 the next time I have good conditions for testing.  I uploaded some additional negative shim files, so you can now test all the way up to 5 degrees without stacking the shims. If you use the thicker shims, make sure your screw is long enough though. 

jmunkki

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2022, 01:38:02 AM »
I tried the KD Maui shims with my Takuma Helium. They are a bit shorter than the ones by Gyre, but symmetrical, so easily reversed. I think either of these will work fine with the standard fuselages from Takuma.

However, I decided to make my own designs because I'm using a custom fuselage from Jim Stringfellow. I noticed the curve on it in the stabilizer area isn't quite as pronounced as in the original Takuma or on the stabilizers. This produced a rocking chair effect where the area between the two screw pushed against the stabilizer. So instead of having a straight line profile in the shim, I'm setting the angle using the area around the screws and then have a slight concave between the screws. The ends also taper down on both sides. This essentially very much like using two washers of different thicknesses to adjust the stabilizer angle. It eliminates the rocking chair problem, so I also made a zero shim where the areas around the screws are equal, but everything else is slightly thinner. My shims are also slightly narrower to match the shape of Jim's fuselage better (but they'll still fit standard Takuma fuselages too).

I'll do a bit more testing and probably post these for free at some point in the future. I managed to a little bit of testing yesterday, but my timing and the wind didn't line up all that great, so I didn't get a whole lot of foiling time yet, unfortunately.

I took a screenshot of the -2.0 shims (mine + Gyre's) sliced for FDM printing side by side. You can see that these are identical around the screws, but where the layers on Gyre's shim are evenly spaced (meaning it's a flat slanted surface), mine are uneven (meaning the top surface is slightly curved). My version is also slightly shorter (but much longer than the KD Maui shims). The shim size text is on the bottom of my shim, so you can't see it in the screenshot. KD Maui has the shim sizes cut through the whole shim and Gyre's don't seem to have sized etched on them.


gyre

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2022, 10:11:50 PM »

Did you try the 1440 with the 220 and negative shims? I stopped at -2.0 ... it got faster and looser every time.
Do you think I could go beyond -2.0? - or stepping down to the 178 stab will be the better option?

That's a good question, I have no idea what the tradeoff are between smaller tails and shimming.  I used the 1440 for about 15 minutes before swapping in a smaller tail, I'll try shimming the 220 the next time I have good conditions for testing.  I uploaded some additional negative shim files, so you can now test all the way up to 5 degrees without stacking the shims. If you use the thicker shims, make sure your screw is long enough though.

I had a chance to do a bit more testing, here's what I found.
  • The 1440 with the 220 at -2.0 shim does feel looser, it also caused my to shift my stance back a lot further than I normally ride, maybe 4 or 5 inches.  Even with the shift back, it felt more back footed (the rear foot was doing more to control the pitch and turns than I'm used to).  The turn radius also seemed longer than I like.
  • I tried the chopped SPG race tail at -3.0, that was interesting.  Much loose which was nice, I like how it felt while moving slow, but it required a lot of back foot pressure to keep the board level.  The main issue is the nose just dived in the turns which made the setup impractical.
  • I reduced the  angle to -1.5 with the same tail, that felt both more locked and and more back-footed than I like, but ok otherwise.
  • I tried the 178 tail with a -1.0 degree shim, and that felt pretty good.  Still more back-footed than I'm used, I'm still not sure how I feel about that.

I'll probably stick with the 178 tail for now and fine tune the angle, there seems to be a trade off between looseness and foot pressure.  Usually I prefer to have enough front foot pressure so I can control the pitch entirely using my front foot (which is why I use a positive shim with the 1095).  But I'm probably willing to give some of that up to get a looser feel, I need more time on the water to get used to a more back-footed riding style to see how I like it.  I'm still hoping a smaller or more chopped tail will give me the best of both, but I'm sure there are other factors in the tradeoff equation that I don't understand fully.  There's also the extra hole to shift the stabilizer forward 30mm mod, but I'm not ready to try that yet.

gyre

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2022, 10:45:46 PM »
KD Maui offers free STL files for stabilizer shims here: https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/collections/extras/products/shim-pack

I downloaded the Takuma set, but I haven't used it yet.

I do a lot of 3D-printing. I burned out doing software and needed to do something else for at least a while, so I quit my job in December and started a company. I was initially doing a mix of software consulting (to pay the bills), 3D printing-related projects and of course all the paperwork to get the company going. I wanted to do a Patreon, but there are legal issues related to Patreon if your Finnish (like me), so I decided to just try to sell the models for a reasonable price on MyMinifactory and make Youtube videos to introduce the projects. So, my Winging-related prints are not free, but I hope they aren't too expensive. This summer has been 50% trying to improve my winging (lots of time on the water) and 50% working on the 3D-printing projects and videos.

My first three "products" are all Duotone-related. There's a pump/valve adapter (since Duotone uses their own valve and doesn't include an adapter for generic pumps with their wings) and there are some 3D-printable front/back ends for wing booms. I like the hockey stick boom project because you're essentially recycling one man's garbage into a $200 carbon boom and spending less than $10 on the materials (and $10 for the 3D file unless you feel like making your own). They haven't sold much at all, so definitely not a viable business, but I guess there aren't that many Duotone wingers with 3D printers who are also aware of my work quite yet.

The next project in my release queue is pretty close to ready. It's a screwdriver handle that is specifically designed for hydrofoil assembly/disassembly, so it's not brand specific and should be useful to all types of foiling (and probably even some applications outside of foiling). I made the first prototypes about a year ago and I have had a couple of friends testing them. You need some screws and of course tool bits from the hardware store in addition to the 3D printed part. It could definitely be also made (better) with more traditional manufacturing, but the 3D printed versions work great too.

I wouldn't mind working with foil companies to allow them to ship their foils with my "GyroKey". The L-shaped Torx driver that I got with my Takuma Helium had very loose-fitting Torx heads and it even got a little bit rusty only after a few weeks of use, so I just decided to make something better myself. It would be nice if foils came with really good assembly tools. I still have the "legendary" F2 footstrap screwdriver and it still works after decades of use installing footstraps. Starboard had a  "Tiki Tool" for footstraps, but I think they discontinued that pretty quickly (mine just broke all too easily for some reason).

I can definitely relate to the software burnout.  My job seem seems to get harder every time it looks windy outside, but it's also what is paying for a very expensive foiling addiction.  Good luck with your company!

Here's a link to the hockey stick boom project for those who are looking for it:
https://www.myminifactory.com/object/3d-print-hockeyboom-wingfoil-boom-duotone-slick-compatible-233110

randomfoiler

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2022, 05:14:15 AM »

Did you try the 1440 with the 220 and negative shims? I stopped at -2.0 ... it got faster and looser every time.
Do you think I could go beyond -2.0? - or stepping down to the 178 stab will be the better option?

That's a good question, I have no idea what the tradeoff are between smaller tails and shimming.  I used the 1440 for about 15 minutes before swapping in a smaller tail, I'll try shimming the 220 the next time I have good conditions for testing.  I uploaded some additional negative shim files, so you can now test all the way up to 5 degrees without stacking the shims. If you use the thicker shims, make sure your screw is long enough though.

I had a chance to do a bit more testing, here's what I found.
  • The 1440 with the 220 at -2.0 shim does feel looser, it also caused my to shift my stance back a lot further than I normally ride, maybe 4 or 5 inches.  Even with the shift back, it felt more back footed (the rear foot was doing more to control the pitch and turns than I'm used to).  The turn radius also seemed longer than I like.
  • I tried the chopped SPG race tail at -3.0, that was interesting.  Much loose which was nice, I like how it felt while moving slow, but it required a lot of back foot pressure to keep the board level.  The main issue is the nose just dived in the turns which made the setup impractical.
  • I reduced the  angle to -1.5 with the same tail, that felt both more locked and and more back-footed than I like, but ok otherwise.
  • I tried the 178 tail with a -1.0 degree shim, and that felt pretty good.  Still more back-footed than I'm used, I'm still not sure how I feel about that.

I'll probably stick with the 178 tail for now and fine tune the angle, there seems to be a trade off between looseness and foot pressure.  Usually I prefer to have enough front foot pressure so I can control the pitch entirely using my front foot (which is why I use a positive shim with the 1095).  But I'm probably willing to give some of that up to get a looser feel, I need more time on the water to get used to a more back-footed riding style to see how I like it.  I'm still hoping a smaller or more chopped tail will give me the best of both, but I'm sure there are other factors in the tradeoff equation that I don't understand fully.  There's also the extra hole to shift the stabilizer forward 30mm mod, but I'm not ready to try that yet.

1440 with the 220 at -2.0 I had the same experience but I moved the mast forward to compensate for this. I used to ride at the back of the track (box starts 26cm from board tail).
With both the above and the 1440 + 178 (awesome indeed) I am closer to the front end of the box ... This allows me to keep the same position on board and foot pressure ...
Do you still have room to move the mast forward?
Now I really want to try the 1440 with the 158 (maybe +1.0) :)     

gyre

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Re: 3d printing for wing foiling
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2022, 11:57:51 PM »
Do you still have room to move the mast forward?
Now I really want to try the 1440 with the 158 (maybe +1.0) :)   

I'm currently all the way forward on the tracks.  I could get another inch or two by drilling out the threaded holes in the baseplate, and/or by changing the extrusion shims at the baseplate and the fuselage to angle the mast (I'm using an Axis mast and baseplate), but I'm waiting to see if it's necessary before going through the hassle.

I did get a new tail that seems quite promising, The Kdfoil 13R works really well with the 1210. https://kdfoils.myshopify.com/collections/tail-wings/products/r-series-tails  I thought the 1210 worked quite well with the 178 and didn't think it needed to be improved, but it seems even better with the 13R.  Kdmaui's site says that the tail works best on the Kujira's 1210 and below, but I'll give it a try on the 1440 anyway, next time the conditions are good for it.

It's hard to know exactly what the differences are between the 13R and the 178 without switching them out in the same session, which I haven't done yet.  So with the caveat that I'm comparing across different sessions and locations, here a few preliminary observations:
  • Pitch and pumping control seems easier, I find it easier to ride higher on the mast with the 13R, which makes it much more efficient
  • The roll axis feels better, smoother? easier to transition from one side to another and adjust the angle mid turn
  • I think the tail is recovering lift after breaching faster, there were quite a times where I should have fallen and almost did, but somehow recovered
  • I think it might have more lift than the 178, making takeoff easier
  • The 1210/13R is the easiest setup for tacking that I've tried, I think it's easier to adjust the radius of the turn as I go so I'm tracing more of a spiral and less of a circular arc, and exiting the turn is easy.  I tend to overshoot with the 1440 because it locks into the turn more than I'm used to.
Overall, the foil just seemed easier to control, it's easier to get to where I want to be on the swell, and the 1210 was already a very intuitive foil to begin with.  I liked the 13R tail pretty much immediately.  The only negative thing I can say about the tail is it does whistle, but I don't think it'll be hard to tune that out as it's not particularly sharp right now.  Well, that and I thought I was saving money by going with the 13R over the 158, but now I'm eyeing the 12R Blunt.  Anyone have any experience with that one?  Or experiences with the blunt tails in general compared to his standard tails?

 


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