Author Topic: List of pitch neutral hand wings  (Read 1817 times)

Wave Chaser

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List of pitch neutral hand wings
« on: July 04, 2022, 12:46:33 PM »
A former hang glider designer (now a pretty skilled winger) told me that a wing is pitch neutral when it doesn't lift up or down while holding it by the leading edge handle in wind appropriate to the size of the wing.  A pitch neutral wing shouldn't push down or whack you in the head when tacking and holding it by just the front handle. And related somewhat:  A pitch neutral wing shouldn't backwind when really powered or when pointing really high into the wind. 

What if you have no wind to test?  Grab it by the front handle in zero wind and throw it like a paper airplane.  Ideally, it will land softly.  It's OK if it noses in slightly.  It's not good if it does a back loop or immediately noses in hard.

For me, after getting used to a wing that is pitch neutral and then trying a couple that are pitch negative, pitch negative is super annoying.  I guess you could get used to pitch negative, but why?

Anyway, the list:

Ensis first generation
Duotone Unit 2022
Cabrinha Mantis V2
Age:  61
5'9"
140lbs / 63kg
Axis HPS 830, Ultrashort fuse, P350 tail, 86cm carbon mast, 45l Axis Froth board

VB_Foil

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2022, 06:52:04 PM »
Interesting topic! This seems to be most evident for me when tacking into the wind. I really enjoy toeside tacking into a hard gust. This is where the wind level is at its max for the wing when in the horizontal position, holding only from the front strut handle and making the hand pass. 

I just tried a slightly pitch negative wing briefly and it seemed to really free up the tack to flip over to the other window, like freed from the wind so it wouldn’t get stuck up in the wind of that makes sense.  Maybe my other wings are just slightly pitch positive.

A while back I tried an Armstrong A-wing v1 on the beach doing the butterfly dance and that thing almost hit me in the head, dropping like a rock, when I tried a tack.

My 5M OR maybe is maybe slightly Pitch Positive.  Last session I tried raising my back hand a bit too much on a tack into a 20mph+ gust and over extended the strut slightly past horizontal, which lead to a violently diving wing that I promptly ran straight into. Luckily I think it caught the nose of my board or I surely woulda cut something on the wing haha. One of those ‘what the hell just happened’ kinda wipeouts. The floppy handles gotta go! A few inches of play on the rigid wings is no bueno.

I would consider my BRMs very pitch Neutral.

Curious as to what others have to say here.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 06:55:54 PM by VB_Foil »
I’m a 5’9” 65kg rider:

Boards:
   4' 27L Armstrong FG Wing/Surf
   4’5” 34L Armstrong FG Wing/Surf
   4'11" 60L Armstrong Wing/Sup
  
  

Foils: Armstrong HA525, HS625, HA725, HA925, HS1050, HA1125, HS1250, HA1325
Wings: BRM 2M & 3M, FreeWing Nitro 4M, OR 5M & 7M Glide

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2022, 06:56:21 PM »
Duotone unit is pitch positive in your definition. In a tack it will lift you straight off your feet if you treat it like any other wing and work it to get it across without hitting you in the head. Big fan.

Wave Chaser

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2022, 07:22:07 PM »
Let's get the definitions straight.  Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I was told that pitch negative means the wing wants to dive, down-force, leading edge hit you in the head during a tack....

Pitch positive means it wants to lift when luffing.

So VB_foil, with these definitions, I think the OR is pitch negative.  I tried the full Aluula ones on the beach 3 different times and they definitely were pitch negative (down-force on my hand when holding the leading edge handle).
Age:  61
5'9"
140lbs / 63kg
Axis HPS 830, Ultrashort fuse, P350 tail, 86cm carbon mast, 45l Axis Froth board

VB_Foil

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2022, 04:57:36 AM »
Yeah I have the same definition as you, except there are two ways to measure:  1) holding LE Handle and 2) holding leading strut handle).  My whole post was referring to situation 2). I will definitely test both ways next session.
I’m a 5’9” 65kg rider:

Boards:
   4' 27L Armstrong FG Wing/Surf
   4’5” 34L Armstrong FG Wing/Surf
   4'11" 60L Armstrong Wing/Sup
  
  

Foils: Armstrong HA525, HS625, HA725, HA925, HS1050, HA1125, HS1250, HA1325
Wings: BRM 2M & 3M, FreeWing Nitro 4M, OR 5M & 7M Glide

red_tx

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2022, 07:21:21 AM »
Um.... "Hand Wing"??

In the beginning.... Eric at progression podcast tried to call them "Hand Kites"...

That did not stick either, and also made me puke burp.

-red

Badger

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2022, 08:31:06 AM »
If it were up to me, I would have everyone just call them wings and stop calling the foil a wing. A foil is a foil and a wing is a wing. One word for each.

That would be better than using all the confusing variations.

.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2022, 08:54:23 AM by Badger »
Naish S26 Hover 110L - Axis HPS 980/400 - BSC 1060/400 - Ozone Wasp 4m/5m, SIC 6m, F-1 CWC 7m
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Me - 6'0" - 165lbs - 65yo

Wave Chaser

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2022, 09:28:22 AM »
I agree, just trying to avoid the all too common, "Wait, which wing are you talking about?"
Age:  61
5'9"
140lbs / 63kg
Axis HPS 830, Ultrashort fuse, P350 tail, 86cm carbon mast, 45l Axis Froth board

MikeLima

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2022, 03:54:31 AM »
If it were up to me, I would have everyone just call them wings and stop calling the foil a wing. A foil is a foil and a wing is a wing. One word for each.

That would be better than using all the confusing variations.

.

Yes! And a standard for +/- tail shimming too please.

Before I learned to tack (I’m at 50% toe side now), I lent a 2022 unit to a friend who says tacking with his own wings is ruined for him now. I tried pushing the back of the strut over but it doesn’t work/need it. Just forget it is the beta.
77kg rider
Armstrong 39L wing/surf
Armstrong 88 wing/SUP

Kujira foils
NoLimitz masts

Duotone unit 2022 3/4/5;dlab6

Jeroensurf

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Re: List of pitch neutral hand wings
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2022, 06:43:42 AM »
Mantis V2 is so far surfing with at the front handle at the most neutral wing I have ridden. Part of that is the very rigid front handle making it easier to correct it when needed
No Duotone, Naish, Slingshot comes close.
My current wings: Smik does come close but are more nervous/less stable when wave riding riding dead down wind, so ordered a COUPLE OF Mantis V2 wings (6+5+4).


 

 


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