Author Topic: FoilDrive and light wind winging  (Read 3153 times)

Foilgeoff

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FoilDrive and light wind winging
« on: August 30, 2021, 12:13:34 PM »

PonoBill

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2021, 08:21:09 PM »
Pretty cool but...
A. It looks like the rider has the foil drive on the mast in both cases. I turned the sound off so I'm not sure, but if it's there, it's going to drag. A lot. Having the foil drive on the mast means you're going to have to use it.
B. Hard to tell from a video, but it looks like he pumps like me, meaning OK, not great. Lots of fury and effort, moderate results. Folks like Alan Cadiz, Mark Raaphorst, heavyweights like Junya or Alieka would be up in those conditions with two pumps. Mary Rose here in Hood River would be up in one.
C. I doubt I'll be using the boost I'm building to do that. I don't care what it weighs or how it mounts, weight and drag is the enemy. If I thought I could ever downwind sup foil without a boost I'd never have one. I can wingfoil in 8-10 with no problems. Don't need it, don't want it.

As a friend said, "lose weight and try harder".
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

bigmtn

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2021, 11:43:40 PM »
Or you could just get better...
http://youtu.be/ZOL8C0cnVMY

Foilgeoff

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2021, 12:09:09 AM »
And be 20 years old and be at the beach for hours every day.
Yeah, sure.
Iíll do that.

Solent Foiler

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2021, 05:35:10 AM »
Pretty cool but...
A. It looks like the rider has the foil drive on the mast in both cases. I turned the sound off so I'm not sure, but if it's there, it's going to drag. A lot. Having the foil drive on the mast means you're going to have to use it.

You might not have caught all the detail without sound, but he pumps on the foil with the foil drive attached (but not activated) and then just uses the foil drive. Also the foil drive mounts high on the mast (unlike an efoil) so once up, drag will be negligible.

His main feedback was the ease with which you can get up and foiling (so saves energy and more foiling time), the fact that you can use smaller foils on light days, but also the insurance it gives you. Going out in 8-10, it doesn't take the wind to drop much before getting going again is impossible for most mortals, especially if you've plugged on a smaller foil.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more of the 'just get better' persuasion myself, but if I lived in a light wind place, I'd be considering it...
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
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Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
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SUPJorge

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2021, 10:06:55 AM »
Quote from: PonoBill on August 30, 2021, 08:21:09 PM
Pretty cool but...
A. It looks like the rider has the foil drive on the mast in both cases. I turned the sound off so I'm not sure, but if it's there, it's going to drag. A lot. Having the foil drive on the mast means you're going to have to use it.

You might not have caught all the detail without sound, but he pumps on the foil with the foil drive attached (but not activated) and then just uses the foil drive. Also the foil drive mounts high on the mast (unlike an efoil) so once up, drag will be negligible.

I think Pono's point (which was my initial reaction as well) is that the unactivated drive creates drag while submerged, requiring additional pumping to get the whole rig flying, so, as you're watching the video and all the pumping, understand that it's not really a drive v. no-drive-naked-mast comparison. Bill will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong.
14' SIC Bullet V2 - 9'1" Naish Hokua X32 LE

Solent Foiler

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2021, 11:38:57 AM »
Ok... The foil drive is certainly a load of drag but once up the only disadvantage is the weight, and you might be willing to have some additional weight in exchange for a smaller foil? I don't know, just speculating... This does feel very similar to E-mountain bikes, which I initially couldn't stand but have grown to accept. If they mean people have more fun (despite the penalties vs an unpowered system) then who am I to be critical. [Just don't be a dick on the uphill and buzz my rear tyre when all of my 300 watts is muscle powered]
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
Swift Foil Boards custom 4'10 x 19.5" 35L
Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
Axis ART 799, 899, 999,1099, US fuse, 85cm mast
Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm and 65cm mast
Duotone Slick 3m, 4m, 5m

juandesooka

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2021, 12:52:38 PM »
I am in the Yes camp. I am hopeful these e-assisted options might open up marginal days and spots that are otherwise not doable.

The video is by Dominic Hoskyns, no slouch when it comes to foiling and pumping:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJv_6oL1jXsgIYNZBEAzRAQ/videos
He is a contemporary of Wake Thief, who is now also on the Foil Drive bandwagon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT1Lw0HRSTE

I am intrigued to see what they come up with for these tools/toys.


juandesooka

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2022, 12:55:23 PM »
Moved here from tail rocker thread:

Quote from: dns on Today at 10:21:01 AM
    Funny, I was just talking about this at the beach yesterday. We were discussing putting a hole all the way through  the deck and mounting the battery pack longitudinally right above the foil. Heat sink would be exposed on the bottom of the board.  That would make it nice and low profile and mitigate the heat and swing weight issues.


I am on diy foil drive v2.1. (aka Faux Drive)

The foil drive is designed to be an add-on to an existing board/foil.  The system works but the wires and box are cumbersome. If building a board from scratch, you could definitely do better.  That's a really interesting idea about installing on the bottom....the worry is your water proofing has to be 100% of you're screwed.

For installing on board top, having the wire come through the board would be an improvement -- best in show would be efoil style with a hollow mast and the wire running under the mast plate. Another option is a through hull handle like the new armstrong boards use, with wire through that.

For the battery and electronics, you could have the box sit in a recessed area in deck, ideally flush with board deck, still use the waterproof box.  Next level up from there is to build a hatch in the board like efoils. I am not sure if the heat sink inside that hatch would provide enough cooling, or you'd need to expose it, or use water cooling.   

I have found my FD is fun in surf ... only had chance to try it twice. Flat water, mixed results. I am skipping the middle man and building a full efoil next, as it's the same everything just bigger. Going bigger! :-)  What changed my mind was seeing my buddy ripping around way outside on a big day, picking off bombs on the shoulder.  I picture leaving port to travel 5km to chase ferry and freighter wakes, no tow boat or wind assist required.  Not quite the same as unassisted wave foil riding...but I am sure it will be lots of fun in its own different way.

SUS4Life

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2022, 01:17:18 PM »
Is there more link on building my own faux drive? what is the cost for your current setup and do you need some software or coding knowledge.  Thanks

juandesooka

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2022, 02:50:23 PM »
Is there more link on building my own faux drive? what is the cost for your current setup and do you need some software or coding knowledge.  Thanks

First step: ask PonoBill, he's forgotten way more than I'll ever know.  :-) 

I think cost is roughly $600-700US.  Your best resource is the Foil Zone forum, look for the Foil Drive Assist DIY thread.   It's a little intimidating, the group is super heavy techies.  But you can find some helpful posts on the parts you need.  I have a buddy who was into RC Gliders, he built one for himself and for me too.  The connecting of the electronic parts was not as technical as I thought, basic soldering.  The ESC (speed control) tuning required some interface with computer -- not coding level, but some tech.  The mast mount and prop required 3d printer, which my buddy bought, or getting parts printed online -- there are public domain files on FoilZone.

So...lots of fiddling around, not for the faint of heart, but it's doable.  All of the parts are bought from China, basically they are e-skateboard motors and controls. I am little surprised one of the big companies (maytech, flipsky) haven't made an easy diy knock off version yet.     

PonoBill

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2022, 10:41:50 PM »
I'm very surprised there isn't a knockoff version, the Foildrive's price is not driven by the expense of the components. It's at most a $1K product with a 50 percent margin. I'm building two boosted foils. One is a Faux Drive, the other is major league overkill.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Wave Chaser

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2022, 06:39:37 PM »
I thought e mountainbikes looked kind of boring...until I tried one.  Super fun, and a whole different experience.  Made me feel like Lance Armstrong when he was taking performance enhancing drugs, but without all the repercussions (except the cost, yikes).  Uphill flow became a thing.  It's not a perfect analogy to the FoilDrive though since e mountainbikes provide propulsion every time you pedal, whereas the FoilDrive turns off the second you are flying.  The lighter weight, lower power e mountainbikes might be a slightly better analogy, only two out there right now are the Specialized Levo SL, and the Orbea Rise.

Seems like FoilDrive would be great for downwind SUP days when there is not much wind, hard or impossible to foil up with just paddle, but good swell.

I've never tried it, but I have heard that SUPfoil downwinding is super hard to learn, and not just the getting up part...
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juandesooka

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Re: FoilDrive and light wind winging
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2022, 08:50:21 PM »
SUP foil downwinding...I haven't tried that either, but when legends of the sport say it's the hardest thing they've done...yikes. So yes, that's one of the main uses for foil drive e-assist. A friend is getting regular 20km rides and only using less than half battery power. 

Foil drive also useful for waves that aren't really breaking well...but I've only had 2 sessions like that since I got mine.  I've used it for flat water pump practice too, quite hard. 

But I have now also tried a full efoil, and similar to your ebike experience, it is way more fun than I expected. Like winging without the wind....you get that speed glide powder snowboard feeling

 


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