Author Topic: Winger's Knees - not abrasion  (Read 8369 times)

surfcowboy

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Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« on: April 20, 2022, 08:30:33 PM »
Ok sorry to the new folks who scuff your knees. This isn't for you. This thread is about all the other structural stuff that winging does to knees.

Apparently, standing up from kneeling on one knee without using your hands is a bit much for human knees. Who knew?

I'll go first. Seems I've got a little patellar tendonitis in my front knee (right/goofy.) I've yet to see the doc but buddies and a few casual healthcare workers who wing diagnosed it via chat and I fit all the symptoms. In good news, it clears after a few days with some ice and rest. However I am going to get a brace (the little hand under your knee kind) and probably work on new techniques like back foot first for a few of my take offs.

This happens more in the ocean since I need to pop up faster. On the lake I can take my time or even stand up before I hoist the wing when it's light so less strain and pressure. Also the braces supposedly redirect the tendon and help prevent this too. We will see.

Symptoms for those who are curious or maybe suffering are pain on the front side of my knee (inside). A feeling like the back of my knee is swollen after a session (weird and this fools you.) And pain when you extend your knee fully. Again this isn't acute like you snapped something. More s dull cumulative effect that goes away after a day or two with rest.

Also, hoping that my newfound jibes and toeside riding will keep me from having to stand up over and over dozens of times a session. But this is a new incentive to get better. 😅

Let's hear the stories. What is your knee score? And yes, Pono, you inspired this one. Figured we need to talk about it as a lot of my local guys have had this stuff too.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2022, 04:20:10 AM »
My wingers knee was also known as Maidís knee. Tender under the knee cap to the point where stepping up into my van was painful.

I designed a board I could simply stand up on without doing knee starts, even in heavy seas. It also required learning new tricks to help me do this start in rough seas.

I almost never do knee starts now. The last time I bothered knee starting it was blowing so hard I was on a 3m.

It might not look cool, but itís better to be pain free.


Surfside

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 04:59:31 AM »
I blew out my knee last year winging which required surgery followed by many months of pain. My Honey, a DVM, uses a cold laser (Class 3 B) on her patients.  So, I tried it....WOW!!! Give it a try. It comes with 30 day return and after my first treatment, I knew I wasn't returning it. Currently using it on broken ribs. (DH, quit rolling your eyes...lol)
 https://www.amazon.com/Therapy-Setting-Perfect-Combination-Effectively/dp/B08M9BB4B8/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=cold+laser+therapy+device&qid=1650541567&sprefix=cold+laser%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-8

BigZ

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 10:41:58 AM »
I destroyed my knees completely skiing, when young and stupid. Multiple surgeries - no cartridge left. I do knee starts but only thanks to rigorous stretching and exercise routine. Damage knees require a lot of nurture so suplement your water sports with regular exercise

DavidJohn

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 02:12:02 PM »
You can see at the start of this vid I also need to stand using my hands and not do the traditional kneel start.. A few years ago it wouldnít have been a problem but getting old is something you just have to live with and at least Iím lucky that I donít have any knee pain..


Dusk Patrol

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 04:58:39 PM »
DJ I think you edited that part out  : )
RS 14x26; JL Destroyer 9'8; BluePlanet 9'4; JL SF 8'6

DavidJohn

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2022, 05:03:13 PM »
DJ I think you edited that part out  : )

Ha.. yeah.. you have to be quick.

I figured no one wants to see an old man groveling to his feet.. Letís see more breach-faceplants.. : )

clay

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2022, 05:10:45 PM »
Ouch.

If I use only my front leg to push myself up to standing I feel pain in front of my knee.

I wait for a gust, use the wing more to pull myself up and do my best to use both legs equal pushing to get up, this way doesn't hurt.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

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surfcowboy

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2022, 08:13:07 PM »
Great stuff guys. Thx for the stories and tips.

I'm doing the things I need to do to keep on my feet. Good thing I like the lake.

Interesting tip was that sinker boards are easier on you too. Makes sense, start on your feet. Something to try when the wind and swell are up.

supmmmm

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2022, 08:19:45 PM »
DJ I think you edited that part out  : )

Ha.. yeah.. you have to be quick.

I figured no one wants to see an old man groveling to his feet.. Letís see more breach-faceplants.. : )

KDMauiís latest Instagram clip is insane-heís got half the wing to the mast breaching like itís no big deal - that guys got it figured out.

radair

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2022, 12:29:35 AM »
Ouch.

If I use only my front leg to push myself up to standing I feel pain in front of my knee.

I wait for a gust, use the wing more to pull myself up and do my best to use both legs equal pushing to get up, this way doesn't hurt.
+1 Use the wing to help pull you up and lever off your back foot, then the one-legged squat is no longer in the equation.

JonathanC

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2022, 02:18:14 AM »
Ouch.

If I use only my front leg to push myself up to standing I feel pain in front of my knee.

I wait for a gust, use the wing more to pull myself up and do my best to use both legs equal pushing to get up, this way doesn't hurt.

Totally agree - pushing up using your back foot makes a huge difference to the strain/discomfort on the front knee. And you donít unsettle the board nearly as much

Surfside

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2022, 02:46:06 AM »
Like BigZ stated, regular exercise helps. Watch "Knees over Toes guy" on YouTube for some tips.

PonoBill

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2022, 10:21:12 AM »
My left knee is weak and painful--not from winging, from all the stupid stuff I did before. Getting to my feet is painful and difficult at the best of times, never mind while bobbing around on a 5'10" board. Maui has an extraordinary PT named Shantelle Pierce who has helped a lot of us straighten out the many tweaks we've done to our bodies over the years that misalign the way our muscles and joints work because we've compensated for injuries, or sat too much, or developed bad habits that make it more comfortable to walk around bowlegged (as I did) or with bent knees, as every geezer I see hobbling around does, now that I know what to look for. Now I see many people walking duck-footed, not rolling off their big toe as they step, or standing on the outside edge of their feet, as I did because my ankles were injured.

Unfortunately, she doesn't believe in remote diagnosis or generalized stretching and exercises because everyone fucks their bodies up in their own unique way (my words, not hers) and without guidance, based on what is actually wrong it's easy to do more harm than good from inappropriate stretches and exercises. But here are two simple things she told me that enable me to get up from my knees when the stars align properly. This works for me, your mileage WILL vary. First, when my knee is aching and I'm trying to get up with my left knee in front I rotate my hip up and to the left before I try to stand to relieve some of the aches. If you look a someone doing this it's obvious that they are giving away a lot of leverage and muscle power to avoid the pain of bending their knee, and of course, it doesn't really work. As soon as you try to stand your big thigh muscles pull down on the joint and kneecap and other than making you want to scream, don't do anything useful. So practice keeping your hip down and aligned with your knee. That's at least 50 percent of the temporary solution.

The other 50 percent is engaging the core. Whenever Shantelle yells "engage your core!!" I'm not exactly sure what she means, but I suck in my gut and clench my butt muscles and it works.

Other than that you'll have to come to Maui and see if she can fit you in. The lady has a packed schedule. Everyone that hires her knows two things: It's going to hurt, and it works. Apparently, most of my muscle mass is like dried leather. She finds knots everywhere she looks and proceeds to turn them back into flexible muscle. 75 years of use and abuse doesn't get sorted out by a massage that feels like butterflies landing on you. I've said before that she just converts all the pain you'll feel over the next week into one one-hour session--it's a funny thing to say, and most people who have had Shantelle work on them know exactly what I mean, but it's not true. I've been seeing PTs and docs for more than ten years, and my inflexibility, limited motion, and resultant pain steadily progressed. My knee used to hurt with every step unless I had recently had a cortisone shot. Now it doesn't. My knees pointed outward--now they don't. My feet were rotated outwards and my big toe barely touched the ground--now my weight is evenly distributed on my feet. My left knee is still weak and hurts like hell when I bend it sharply or raise it. But I'm going to keep working on that. We'll see how much that can be repaired.

I'd say if you're having trouble with your knees, find a PT in your area that works hands-on with clients and isn't afraid to dig deep to solve problems. I think they are hard to find. Most PTs I've worked with show you a few stretches and exercises and send you on your way. Insurance probably won't pay for the more intensive work a PT like Shantelle does (she doesn't accept insurance), but they'll pay $100K for an artificial knee that will let you walk and do some things pain-free, but that will probably be the end of a lot of the things you love to do. Solving the underlying cause is not generally the aim of most medicine, and I think that's because doctors work with the things patients will actually do. Not many folks will really do intensive work to correct a problem. We want a pill or surgery. We don't want someone to tell us we have to work like hell through a lot of pain and lose the extra fat we're carrying around. I know I don't, but I also have figured out that it's the most likely solution to the problem.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2022, 10:29:51 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

rfhestdalen

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Re: Winger's Knees - not abrasion
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2022, 09:37:12 AM »
My wingers knee was also known as Maidís knee. Tender under the knee cap to the point where stepping up into my van was painful.

I designed a board I could simply stand up on without doing knee starts, even in heavy seas. It also required learning new tricks to help me do this start in rough seas.

I almost never do knee starts now.

Dwight i am curious what your technique is to get to a standing position without kneeing first?  Can you describe in detailed steps how this is done?  A short video would be awesome?
I have chondromalacia patellae and find using my old volleyball knee pads keeps my knees from swelling, but using alternative techniques to skipping the knee start would be great.

 


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