Author Topic: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L  (Read 12773 times)

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2022, 02:15:52 PM »
Im keeping it at 8 in/h2o to be safe. I head 10 may be ok as well.

I finished glassing the deck skin and the put in the inserts, leash plug (into the top of the track), vent, and the Tuttle top.

I made the Tuttle topper out of g10 which I routed to the right height, about 1/8. Then I drilled the two holes for the Tuttle adapter, I put in three more holes a bit smaller that I can drill and tap to fit footstrap screws at a later date. I countersunk the Tuttle attachment screws so they will sit flush with the deck. I put in a few holes to lighten it up as well.

Weight is a hair over 5lbs at this point.

Next is spackling the whole board and then sanding and then glassing.

I have DAP patch n paint which Ill thin a bit with water. Here is a vid of stretch using the same product. https://youtu.be/tHHGxMAnLOU

My pump is home made. I took a KNF 12v dc diaphragm pump with a 0-5v controller and hooked it up to a one way valve, an adjustable electronic vacuum regulator and a liquid filled gauge, controlled using a cheap buck booster from Amazon and powered by a laptop power supply.

Advantages are that this pump is lab quality, can run continuously forever and its small. It cycles on for about 5 seconds every minute or two. It is slow to pull a vacuum on the whole board, taking about 5 or 10 minutes, so I get it started with a handheld house vacuum.

The vacuum switch and one way valve were from ACP composites. No pressure relief is needed for the pump at this low of a vacuum.

In hindsight, a harbor freight pump would have been fine and about the same price as my setup. I would want that on a pressure switch as well so you dont burn out the pump, which needs oil. Since those pumps are high amp, you would need the pressure switch to flip an SSR to control the power to the pump.


JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2022, 02:18:37 PM »
Apologies for the upside down photos.

If anyone who knows can confirm that after glassing and being left with a preppy finish, if Squeegeeing on microballoons and tinted resin would be how to adequately seal the board, if appreciate it! If I did not tint would it be brown? I understand that would leave some weave feel to the board, which is fine.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2022, 11:14:32 PM »
Glassed her up and shes splashing tomorrow hopefully.

My 4oz carbon innegra turned out to be more of a 5 or 6 oz. It drinks epoxy, but it comes back out under vacuum. Cloth to epoxy ratio after vacuum: 1.69=610/361

I put in the footstraps using some 4oz s glass under each that spread to the deck. When I did the carbon later I put a patch over them. I used taped up paper to mark the holes and aligned it with the vent and the leash plug. The leash plug was put into the divinycell sticking up from the box, since the box was so far back.

The vacuum bagging was pretty cool, it fixes your problems, but also makes it so your curves are blind when you bag it and you have no idea whats going on, if the fabric is folded, the peelply goes underneath, etc. That happened quite a bit. I learned you really cant wrap under the deck, so next time I would just cut it at the bottom of the rail for each side. My second round I made the nose carbon and glass go on without a fold. The deck was perfect, the tail was a mess though.

I had an epoxy mixing issue when I panicked and ran out of resin, so I spent a while cleaning that up today and she gained a little weight.

The single piece of carbon/innegra and the s glass was too thin for anywhere I might press. You can easily feel the foam moving when you push on it. I put extra carbon on the rails. The only place with only one layer is the top and bottom front 2 feet, but the rails are mostly double wrapped.

Next time Id use only carbon and no innegra or glass.

I put on some microballoons and cabosil 3:1. The stuff dried fast. Hopefully I can sand it later and get it wet tomorrow.

It seems that an epoxy finish coat would be ideal (apparently all fillers are not totally watertight), but to make it nice would add a pound probably and shes getting a little tubby. Also, a foil board is not sitting in the water like a boat, so it should be fine. Its just under 10lbs before the microballoons were added.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2022, 11:19:49 PM by JohnnyTsunami »

Dontsink

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2022, 03:43:06 AM »
That is a good weight for volume.
Did you bag in one go or first bottom then deck?.
Doing the pointy bits is what i find really hard to get right without getting creases,folds and a botched look :)

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2022, 08:04:01 AM »
Dwight, re Mike's Lab, yeah they are solid carbon for many parts. Heavy as heck. Racers don't care, just need thin, slippery, and fast. Several guys here have them and they are crazy awesome people say.

finbox

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2022, 09:26:50 AM »
Where did you get your carbon innegra fabric? I haven't seen that pattern before.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2022, 07:33:15 PM »
About 3 hours of sanding this morning and she floats.

I got a pad from NSI and routed out the holes for the tracks and the Tuttle and footstraps. The carbon over the foil is very thick, it was burning up my trim router bit, so I feel pretty confident in it. All in all its a pretty beefy board. Im toying with the idea of an epoxy sealer coat. If I could be sure I wont be sanding for another three hours. What if I brushed in thin epoxy and put a super this plastic drop cloth on top, could that be a no sand finish?

The board is a bit of a sinker. I think Im right in that negative 5 or 10 L where corkiness is an issue. I can slog in 5knots and I can get up in the same amount of wind as my fanatic 2022 95L, I think due to my tail being just as wide. There will be some getting used to it as a foil stall results in a nosedive underwater, but I think I can figure out how to avoid that. Also, leaning back is important when just starting to pump the wing. I see other boards with more tail rocker, but they are Tuttle only and easier to angle the Tuttle box differently than the board.

Its very lively and responsive and will take some getting used to.

The fabric is from a company called Sanded in Australia.

@surfcowboy I posted the weight of the ML, I think its in line with Armstrong who post their completed foil weights, even though the mast is 20cm longer.

@Dontsink I did the bottom then the top separately. I cant imagine doing them both at the same time, although I have seen the Dutch guy do it in YouTube, maybe different fabric makes it easier.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2022, 10:20:24 AM »
Well I've got a few sessions on the new board. I had a slight issue where a track-mounted foil felt different on different tacks. I measured with a free iphone level app that reads to the .1 degree and found that one track was sitting high and tilting .7 degrees. Fortunately I had enough glass and sealer to sand it down to perfect. I rode it again and it's great.

I was lucky/unlucky to get rescued today by the only boat out in the wind and waves, a 35 foot cabin cruiser manned by a bunch of beercan cruisers catching the sunset. The wind promptly shut down and I was a mile out. In below 5 knots I can slog the board by sitting upright on it like a surfer dangling my legs and holding the wing in the air. This gets me just over 1 knot of speed and is pretty low effort. I would be able to get to shore but it would have taken forever. I also keep a marine radio for this sort of thing.

Getting in the big boat my board got smashed into the swim platform a few times. It was the tail of the board, since I was holding the leash. I was certain I would have some repairs to do.

I got back to the beach, and there is not a scratch on it. I take back what I said about this innegra stuff. My tail probably has the most wraps on it, three layers of carbon/innegra on the corners, plus 4oz s glass. My plan was to make this board as light as possible and assumed any impact would result in a repair except for the d-cell standing area. However, it looks like I unwittingly built a really durable board.

Misc. Things I Learned

- The board is definitely more prone to nosedive. Shaping it again I'd put in another inch of front rocker. I think this is an issue with any board under 5 feet long. I can save soft touchdowns, but I'm nosediving where my 5'4" board would not have been. I think my technique can help.

- The rail bevel with hard edges works great and I bounced off some touchdowns without slowing down.

- The length and the light weight are awesome. I think the short length makes a big impact in the turning ability and pumping ability, regardless of the weight.

- I find my rear foot has my toes dangling off the pad sometimes. I'm glad I made it as wide as I did, the tail is 15" across at the back - which is the same as my 26" diameter 5'4" fanatic tail. I need to make my front footstraps bigger so I can push my foot in further to the center and keep my rear foot more centered.

- The pad and straps add over a pound. The NSI pads are 5# density and 1/4" thick. I considered buying 2mm EVA foam and sticking it on myself. If I knew the density it may save almost 1/2 a pound. Next time I'll factor the pad into my glassing schedule. If you have a pad over the deck area, you may be able to get away with one or less layers of carbon, or no divinycell for a 1# EPS.

- The vacuum pulled more than half the epoxy out of the laminate. I used a peelply and cotton breather cloth. Many people use a perforated bleeder material between the peelply and the breather to the laminate from drying out. I'm not sure where my laminate ended up on the dryness scale.

- I don't know how to vacuum epoxy out of the divinycell layer. You have to put glass down on the EPS and then the divinycell, but there is no way for the resin to get pulled out. Maybe you poke 1,000 little holes in the divinycell?

- I think cabosil is too strong/heavy for most applications. I would have used microballoons and only a little cabosil for things like the footstrap mounts and the boxes in retrospect. Alex Aguera says this in an old video of him installing a tuttle box.

- Everything takes 3x longer than you anticipate as a beginner. "I'll just sand the deck and glass it in 45m," actually takes 3 hours. 

- 1 pound EPS is easy-ish to work with but the slightest bump or tool striking it will result in a gouge, as well as sanding it at the wrong angle. I would recommend starting on stronger foam, 1.25, 1.5 or 2# foam.

- Had I not wrapped to the other deck on my laminations I would have had a much cleaner nose and tail and I could have saved some weight on my sealer coat. The other area that cost me a pound was having dual tracks and a tuttle.

- I'm not sure on the strength of my footstrap inserts since there is only 1 4ox glass holding them in and they are placed in 1# EPS without a HD insert.

Total weights:

Before Sealing Coat:  4.4kg/9.7lbs
Finished / naked:      4.68kg/10.32 lbs
With Pad Installed:    4.997kg/11.00 lbs
With Pad and Strap:   5.22kg/11.45lbs   


All in all, I'd recommend building a board. Unlike a surfboard the actual shape and details don't matter nearly as much, so as long as you can put in the foil mount and keep it watertight, you'll end up with a useable board.   

jondrums

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2022, 12:54:53 PM »
Your build thread is inspiring, thanks for publishing it!

consider cork deckpad next time.  I'm really really liking the RSPro cork hextraction and rear footpad that I used and it is much lighter than the EVA pads.

Dontsink

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2022, 12:52:54 AM »
It is a very good weight,considering the Tuttle,footstraps and ding resistance i would say it is excellent!.

Was gonna mention the cork pads too, they seem to be the lightest with good reviews on grip and comfort.

You say you wrapped all around and this gave you problems...what is the option?.
This is the part that worries me the most,getting a tight wrap round the tail corners etc... and keeping the edges strong as they take all the knocks.
It looks so easy in vids but it is such a messy,difficult thing to do with epoxy up to your elbows and the clock ticking :)
What would you do different?

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2022, 10:11:38 AM »
Im trying to think what Id do differently.

Id wrap the rails but not go further around to the opposite deck. If you want more cloth there just do it when you laminate that side. Bust out the scissors and cut the wet cloth on the board. I got fancy scissors I was worried about messing them up, haha, but I got over that.

The carbon innegra wrapped nicely on the rails mostly, I had more trouble with the fiberglass not wanting to stretch or shrink. When you do make a folded mess of the innegra you are screwed since it doesnt sand so you cant level it out again.

There are some tricks I dont know since some other folks seem to make boards the same dimensions about 2 lbs lighter. I think they are going full carbon and using 1.25# foam.

My complete top lamination weighed .61kgs not including the dcell and 4oz underneath (unfortunately my notes arent good enough to figure the 4oz weight but the dcell was around 60grams). That was carbon over everything and two deck patches and a couple small patches plus 4oz s glass over top. How to suck the resin out from below the dcell is my biggest mystery. I pulled 35% of the resin out with the vacuum for the top lamination. Resin to fabric ratio .7:1

The bottom lamination was 1.25kg, which is somewhere I could have done better. It included carbon and s glass over everything, wrapped the rails nose and tail. 4patches over the box, the largest of which went 1/2 the board length. I also did carbon rail strips. I had my epoxy mishap and ended up with extra 4oz on half the board.

I speckled the board, not sure if that is superior to microballoons or not. It definitely provides zero structural help but it dries extremely fast and is pretty light.

tarquin

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2022, 11:51:38 AM »
Great job.
 You can buy dcell with holes in it. I tried a foaming epoxy additive to get a lighter finish and hope the expanding epoxy would fill at the same time.
 A guy in Australia makes surfboards by vac bagging Paulownia onto blanks with PU glue. He has showed lots of pics where the PU glue really pushes into the foam. So I thought it would be good to try it with foaming epoxy. No idea if it worked because I didn't weigh it or cut into it. Still use the board sometimes.

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2022, 08:31:10 PM »
Nice work man. Yeah, sanding sucks. But you get faster and each board you learn how to remove steps.

The lap thing is a great example. Surfboards you want a full lap with all cloth layers. I limit mine and if there are 2+ layers on a side I'll cut 1 or 2 to just the deck. Only lap the top layer or two and yes, stop before it wraps to the other side.

The microballoon thing is spot on too. Other fillers are hard to sand. I'm experimenting with fill coats now using balloons on my build. I did traditional fill coat on deck and am regretting it, though it looks cool. I'll sand it all down and go lighter.

And finally, yeah don't expect to get the weight of a pro with thousands of boards made, right? You did great and your note on not sweating it too much is true. These things work pretty well. That last 20% of perfection is what takes a decade and hundreds of boards. Uhg, I wish this forum software was easier to post pics from. A build thread on the zone is almost as much work as building the board.  😂

tarquin

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2022, 09:52:34 PM »
I was watching a vid of a pro building a SUP once and he wet out the carbon on a wet out table. But only just. He didn't soak it. He then put it on the board and poured what looked like epoxy with micro balloons in it onto the carbon. Still very runny though.
 I have used this method on glass before and you can get a pretty smooth finish with that and the Jimmy Lewis poor mans peel ply or vac bag,can never remember what he calls it.
 Also using other additives apart from micro balloons will give you a lighter mix, specific filling additives. Depends if you are painting or not. Some companies do various size microballons. The company I use here in France does 3 or 4 sizes from about 100g/l (grams per litre) to 400g/l.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Wing Board Build 4'6" x 23" x 5.25" ~75-80L
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2022, 11:36:18 PM »
Well, I'm building a new board in time for July. I won't make a thread on it, but here is what I found are the problems with this board.

- Nosediving - stalls, pumping on foil, jumping = nosediving and crashing. The rocker is simply not enough. The lack of any tail rocker adds to the problem as well.

- Finishing - my finish wasn't very good and it didn't actually seal the board completely. I got a nasty gash on the way to the water one day and didn't see it. Drying the board out, I was a ton of holes on the bottom with water bubbling out! I'm going to take super care next time finishing and sealing the board.

- Soft - The board is soft to the touch in many places and has always been soft in the thinly glassed places. Is it delaminating due to too much resin removal during vacuuming since I didn't use perforated film over the peelply? Maybe. I'm going full D-cell sandwich next time. I think I can do this and keep the same weight or lighter. I know this will add expense and a few extra steps and possibly some weight. I'll find out if it's worth it. I'm super impressed by the d-cell sections of the board.


My impression is that 1/8" 5lb D-cell is the equivalent of adding a 4oz cloth and epoxy, except it results in a way stiffer laminate. So using this on the board with 3oz spread-tow carbon underneath the whole board should result in no need to double over the rails or add glass on top of the carbon. The only issue is you can't suck much resin through it using the vacuum. The solution, in my mind, is to basically do a poor man's prepreg and keep the resin low to begin with. Anyway, that's my plan! Anyone have advice I'd love to hear it. 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 11:40:56 PM by JohnnyTsunami »

 


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