Author Topic: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?  (Read 4084 times)

JohnnyTsunami

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Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« on: January 21, 2022, 10:29:30 AM »
Hi all, looking for experienced opinions on a ~55L 4í6Ē wing board vacuum build Iím trying to keep super light. I donít want a box failure but Iíd be fine with a board that dings easily.

Option 1:

2oz s glass entire top
4oz carbon/innegra whole top and rails
1/8Ē 5lb divinicell standing area
2oz s glass standing area

1lb EPS CORE

3 x 4oz carbon innegra overlapping patches for foil box.
4oz carbon/innegra entire bottom and rails
2oz s glass entire bottom

Option 2: heaviest

Same as 1 but 1.5lb and no divinycell, just some patches over foot locations

Option 3: heavier

Same as 1 but divinycell entire top (and bottom?)

Option 4: lightest

Same as 1 but no 2oz S glass finish, just 4oz carbon innegra.

Other stuff:

- 1.5Ē thick HD foam track foil box
- Tuttle box through track box going to upper skin
- HD blocks under footstraps and leash plug.

Iíd like to finish as light as possible. All the fast guys in SF with custom boards have a peel ply finish with no pad. Iím not sure how they seal from pinholes. I think if I glass the 2oz separately that should fill the pinholes from the lower layer, correct? Or do I need a micro bead/epoxy rub ove that as well? If I just finish with carbon/innegra (which canít be sanded) can I just do a microballoon /epoxy rub on that to finish?

I promise to post a build thread once itís started to help other clueless newbies. Aim is February.


PonoBill

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2022, 07:16:37 PM »
Even with the current state of composite tech you have two choices--light or penetration-resistant. With a little tech you can be light and strong, but stopping dings takes a bit of stuff. And stuff is weight.

You can tilt the tradeoff dramatically with great technique, craftsmanship, modern equipment, and materials, but you're always trading something for something. Even talking about a glassing schedule means you're going to be a long way from light and strong.

Really, if you don't vacuum bag you're going to have to trade too much. the infusion guys say the same thing to old-school table layup baggers like me.  I do very little composite work here in Maui because I don't have all my toys. If you want to do a light, strong board get thee to a class or two, the folks that sell the stuff have them fairly often, and the online stuff is helpful, though not as helpful as being hands-on.

I'm an idiot for not haunting Mark Raaphorst's shop when he's building a board. He's got all the toys and the boards he builds, even for a clumsy, careless fuck like me, are astonishingly resilient.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

sflinux

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2022, 06:43:50 AM »
I have a very light carbon sup custom board from a reputable local shaper that was painted.  i notice that pin holes of water escape from the board during land storage.  Doesn't seem to affect the weight.  But if I was going to remake the board I'd probably want another layer of glass at the expense of extra weight.
That being said I would think that the box is the most critical part of the construction.  Erik Antonson likes to have stringers on his boards to tie into the box to give a solid feel and minimal failures.  Maybe reach out to him and he may give recommendations on glassing schedule.  He is a L dude so is a decent tester for abuse.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 06:48:14 AM by sflinux »
Quiver Shaped by: Joe Blair, Blane Chambers, Kirk McGinty, and Bob Pearson.
Me: 195#, 6'2"

PonoBill

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2022, 01:28:43 PM »
It probably will eventually add weight if the board is just EPS under the pinholes. If it's PVC or something similar, no big deal though it might delam sooner rather than later. Water vapor makes for a LOT of internal pressure, especially in pockets.

There are some coatings that do a really good job with pinholes though they are not easy to find or use. When and if I decide to build a board I'll contact one of the more technically oriented manufacturers and find out what is the latest, greatest. For a while, people were very excited about super-low viscosity epoxies for hot coating and pinhole elimination, though lately, I've been reading about good things about epoxy with a kind of rubbery additive. The thin epoxy aims to fill the pinholes by flowing into them and blocking them from the inside. I guess the rubbery stuff tries to do the opposite--flow over them. I thought at one time that ordinary paint would help, but the skin of paint after it flows out is both too thin and too weak.

I occasionally haunt Swaylocks for info, but it's not the great advice repository it used to be. Lots of old-school folks who claim everything went to shit when people stopped using polyester.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2022, 09:31:20 AM »
All the fast guys in SF with custom boards have a peel ply finish with no pad. Iím not sure how they seal from pinholes.

They do full Divinycell wrap. Divinycell makes it water tight. Pinholes, hot coat, none of it matters after that. Competition windsurf boards are build this way, donít even do real hot coats. Epoxy, micro ballon filler and spot putty, done. Paint sometimes.

Dontsink

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2022, 11:28:30 PM »
Would a full "Blue Foam" XPS  core board come out too heavy?.
The foam i can get is 32kg/m3 = 2lb/ft3
The advantages would be waterproofness and higher ding resistance/rigidity ,maybe allowing for a light layup of innegra and carbon.I would vacuum bag the whole mess.

In an 80 liter board a 2lb core is 2.5kg total.A 1 lb core would be 1.25kg saving.

Another goofball idea i have is to do some kind of "hollow" in the nose area, i think Salomon did some semihollow core surfboards back in the day "S-core" or something like that.
With XPS panels the hollow areas could be cut easily before gluing them up, not sure if the vacuum would just implode the monster :)

PonoBill

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2022, 01:12:12 AM »
Blue foam isn't much fun to work with, and it's too heavy for a board of any size. I use it for small parts where the weight isn't an issue. Like making foil wings.

You can bag delicate parts but you have to use a correspondingly light vacuum, and that means excess weight from not squashing out the excess epoxy. On the other hand, if you squeeze hard enough you can squash most foams. This is blue foam as extensions to make the fat boy wing--a damaged Axis 1020 that I extended to about 1150--the dips are on both sides about an inch from the mounting cutout. I set the vac too high, though it looked okay when I left the shop. The dips are hard to see in the photo but they're obvious when you see the actual wing.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 01:14:24 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2022, 10:12:48 AM »
All the fast guys in SF with custom boards have a peel ply finish with no pad. Iím not sure how they seal from pinholes.

They do full Divinycell wrap. Divinycell makes it water tight. Pinholes, hot coat, none of it matters after that. Competition windsurf boards are build this way, donít even do real hot coats. Epoxy, micro ballon filler and spot putty, done. Paint sometimes.

Thanks a lot dwight. I calculate adding 5lb divinycell over the whole board and 2oz s glass would about 1.5lb but I suppose if it makes the entire board much stronger and fully waterproof, then it may be worth it.

Do you think my schedule #1 would be OK with a full divinycell wrap or would I be putting pressure dings in the deck?

(weight incl. resin)
(4oz)      2oz s glass entire top
(8oz)      4oz carbon/innegra whole top and rails
(8oz)      1/8Ē 5lb divinicell ENTIRE top
(4oz)      2oz s glass entire top

(25oz) 1lb/.8 EPS CORE

(4oz)      2oz entire bottom
(8oz)      5lb 1/8" divinycell entire bottom
(8 oz)     3 x 4oz carbon innegra overlapping patches for foil box.
(8oz)      4oz carbon/innegra entire bottom and rails
(4oz)      2oz s glass entire bottom

Add foil box (22oz) foot straps blocks and plugs (16oz), and a light micro balloon coating (8oz?) and we get to:

7.9 lbs which is pretty good.

This is the weight of the Armstrong 34L 4'5", the Armstrong 4'11" 60L is 10.3 lbs. This is my goal, to make it the weight of a surf-specific board but with a good volume for winging. 



Dwight (DW)

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2022, 10:51:22 AM »
My 35 liter boards, made with 6oz carbon and 4oz Innegra top and bottom. No fiberglass. No sandwich. Blank 1.5# EPS. Vac bagged. Heavy Chinook tracks. Came out 6 lbs.

If you go too fancy on the construction, without lots of expertise, you'll likely just make a heavy board. Keep it simple.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2022, 01:03:36 PM »
Definitely something I will have to think about.

I suppose now that you're retired you can spill the beans on how to cleanly lap innegra with no glass on top?   ;)

tarquin

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2022, 03:59:26 PM »
Don't know how much vac bagging you have done but it was an expensive learning experience for me. Played around with different stuff but as DW says keep it simple. More layers means more epoxy. You don't need much pressure to damage a light EPS core.
 I havnt made a lot of boards but this SUP turned out well. 180g carbon/innegra hybrid and 100g UD flax. Very strong and impact resistant.
 Patrick at 3 Bay SUP uses spread tow weave carbon. He says the same board made with a normal weave is definately heavier.
 Using perforated release film can give a better finish than peel ply. I also found a light weight peel ply.

surfcowboy

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2022, 07:34:46 PM »
Johnny, listen to Dwight lol. He's never steered me wrong.

If you haven't bagged much, just do some test pieces. You'll be surprised what you learn and how forgiving it can be (and where it's not.) Have a buddy, one you won't want to punch when they mess up a step lol. It's way easier. I know my marriage is solid because I lam with my wife ha! A true test.

If you're willing to let go of 10% or cosmetic perfection you can cut 30% of the work and get a lighter board.

I'm interested in this for sure. Post pics as you work. Still haven't run any Innegra. I need to get into it as I'm not easy on boards.

Vancouver_foiler

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2022, 08:37:28 PM »
My 35 liter boards, made with 6oz carbon and 4oz Innegra top and bottom. No fiberglass. No sandwich. Blank 1.5# EPS. Vac bagged. Heavy Chinook tracks. Came out 6 lbs.

If you go too fancy on the construction, without lots of expertise, you'll likely just make a heavy board. Keep it simple.

Dwight, did you ever use carbon/innegra twill or did you just use two separate layers?

Thanks

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2022, 04:03:59 AM »

Dwight, did you ever use carbon/innegra twill or did you just use two separate layers?

Thanks

I have used it. It works well. Needs to be capped with 4oz glass.

SUPeter

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Re: Ultralight wing board glassing schedule?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2022, 04:34:08 AM »
Would a full "Blue Foam" XPS  core board come out too heavy?.
The foam i can get is 32kg/m3 = 2lb/ft3
The advantages would be waterproofness and higher ding resistance/rigidity ,maybe allowing for a light layup of innegra and carbon.I would vacuum bag the whole mess.

In an 80 liter board a 2lb core is 2.5kg total.A 1 lb core would be 1.25kg saving.

Another goofball idea i have is to do some kind of "hollow" in the nose area, i think Salomon did some semihollow core surfboards back in the day "S-core" or something like that.
With XPS panels the hollow areas could be cut easily before gluing them up, not sure if the vacuum would just implode the monster :)




I often chamber/ hollow out my 2-2.5 lb EPS using a hot wire gouge. First I cut the board, with a hot wire, into 3 longitudinal sections. Left, right , center.  I do not chamber under or over track box or standing/kneeling areas.  The chambers always leave 1-1.5" of foam between it and the outer surface. each chamber is 2-4" wide with 1.5" solid walls in between.  Two forward vents are used but the gas pathway is from one vent, down length of Left side of board to tail, across to right side of board at tail, back up forward to to vent on right side.  This is so if I do get a leak I can dry it out by just infusing air with an aquarium pump.  In essence, all chambers have one communication hole between them and the next chamber.  I vacuum bag using very low pressures(4-7 inH20(? units). 

 


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