Author Topic: What makes a quiver?  (Read 2158 times)

PonoBill

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What makes a quiver?
« on: December 08, 2021, 11:02:53 AM »
In the windsurf world people had a lot of ideas about how big the steps should be in a quiver. For the basic kind of windsurfing I used to do--mow the lawn at the Hatchery, Dougs, Rowena, etc. in the Gorge, and add in a little surf at Kanaha, Euro, or break all my stuff at Ho'okipa--most people used some kind of percentage jumps. That had the benefit of being a bit bigger jumps at large sizes where a rough cut is suitable for light wind and then smaller increments at the nuclear wind end where size got very important.

It seems like wing manufacturers just do some random increments, like half meters. I find myself not able to make a reasoned choice of wing sizes. Going from 6 to five doesn't seem to accomplish much, and dropping to 4.2 often seems too far. In fact, I rarely use the 4.2. It's either 5.0 or 3.5 of if the wind is light it's 6.0

I'm thinking perhaps I can look at wing sizes the way I used to look at sail sizes.  I always wanted sails in my quiver to overlap a little at the top and bottom of their range. After a lot of fiddling and testing I settled on 20 percent as a reasonable number (each sail is 80 percent of the preceding sail). I haven't done any of that kind of testing for wings, but I suspect if I do it will be something similar. Twenty percent starting at 6Meters is  6, 4.8, 3.8, 3.1. 2.4.  I like the looks of that progression. A heavy guy like me could skip the 2.4 and have a well-spaced 4 wing quiver.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2021, 12:30:32 PM »
@ponobill Sounds good if you donít like money or want the absolute perfect wing for the conditions.  ;)

Iíve had a good spring/ summer on a two wing 6m and a 4.5m. Certainly didnít miss any sizes in between. Could have used a 3m during a storm.
Since percentages are weird, the 4.5 is 25% smaller than the 6m and the 6m is 33% bigger than the 4.5m.
If there are tiny whitecaps I can use either but if there is any doubt I always size up. Lots of whitecaps or a rising forecast and I go smaller. Pretty simple.

Iím thinking of going aluula and getting either a 6 and a 4 or a 5.5 and a 4 as a two wing quiver as they have better top and bottom range.

6 and 4.5 is 33% bigger and 25% smaller.
5.5 and 4m is 37% bigger and 27% smaller, so a bigger gap.
6 and 4 is 50% bigger and 33% smaller so much bigger gap.

If aluula has a wider range the 5.5 and 4m should have similar or greater overlap as my current 6 and 4.5, and have much better top end. True 10-30knot range. Maybe the 6 and 4 would work but Iíd be stretching out the middle ground a lot and that would be a $4k mistake!

A 3m would be necessary for over 30knots so if you see that a lot youíd need a three wing quiver.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2021, 01:49:28 PM »
I had a quiver of
6.2
5.2
4.5
3.5
2.8
The gaps were not good.

Then got
6.2
5.2
4.5
4.0
3.5
2.8
5.2 and 4.0 was the right gap. The rest were bad gaps

Really happy to be back on the simple gap plan
6
5
4
3
This works best for me. Yeah, 6 and 5 are close, but I donít need a 7, so 6 is right.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 01:51:09 PM by Dwight (DW) »

burchas

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2021, 05:01:28 PM »
For me the Fone 6M CWC and the Ocean Rodeo 4M Glide A Series covers 8-30 winds.
My Fone Swing 3.5M V1 is usable in higher winds but I'd rather be Downwinding on a sup or practicing sup foil downwind.

What about the quiver of foils that goes with those hand wings?
in progress...

Dwight (DW)

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2021, 06:33:20 PM »

What about the quiver of foils that goes with those hand wings?

Quiver of one for me. ART-999. 6m OR has allowed me to retire the 1050 on light days.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 06:35:06 PM by Dwight (DW) »

surfcowboy

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2021, 07:57:44 PM »
I'm on a 5m and 3.5m at my size and I like it. 4 didn't allow for the high winds and didn't go low enough on the other end.

With better designs out I'm anxious to try a CWC 6 and that may get me to 6 - 3.5 which should sort me for a bit. At least until I feel comfortable in 30+ (will be a while.)

My buddy is learning and regularly rides a 6m over 20 mph. If I could stretch that to 15-18 I can easily hop to the 3.5.

Solent Foiler

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2021, 11:29:10 PM »
Happy with my 5, 4, 3 gaps in the Slicks. The wind can be a bit fickle where I am and hate being underpowered as I'm normally trying to get upwind, so only tend to size down if I'm sure I'm solidly in the smaller wings range. Broadly it's 5m until it's gusting 20 knots, 4m once it's a solid 18-20 knots, 3m when it starts gusting close to 30. In my head that's 5m for light/moderate, 4m for windy, 3m for booming...

Foil quiver is 999 / Fluid LS depending on mood as daily drivers. Both are a similar size, just very different characteristics, and Fluid XXL-S for when it's 12 knots or less. I enjoy using all three, so happy whatever the conditions.
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
Swift Foil Boards custom 4'10 x 19.5" 35L
Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
Axis ART 799, 899, 999
Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm mast
Duotone Slick 3m, 4m, 5m

daswusup

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2021, 06:43:42 AM »
Darts
4
4.5
5 - just popped strut yesterday

Slingwing V3  5 arrives today
Axis as of today:
980
890
999
1050
crazy short
ultra short
375p
380 HA
chopped 460
carbon 82
alu 76 (drought mast)

PonoBill

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2021, 09:34:54 AM »
@ponobill Sounds good if you donít like money or want the absolute perfect wing for the conditions.  ;)

Iíve had a good spring/ summer on a two wing 6m and a 4.5m. Certainly didnít miss any sizes in between. Could have used a 3m during a storm.
Since percentages are weird, the 4.5 is 25% smaller than the 6m and the 6m is 33% bigger than the 4.5m.

Percentages are certainly weird, you do need to set a rule to talk about them, I look at them in the smaller direction, though it might be useful to calculate both. I've had pointless arguments with folks trying to explain that 75 is 25 percent smaller than 100, but 100 is 33.3% larger than 75. Most people absolutely believe that 100 must be 25% larger even though I think my example makes it kind of obvious. 100-25 = 75. 75 X 33.3 = 25. I still think there was a question on the SAT when I was in high school that had it wrong--none of the choices were right.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 09:41:37 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Wingfoil2001

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2021, 12:11:01 PM »
My high use wing is a 4 mtr Unit, probably 50% of the days, then a 3.3 Unit followed by a 5.5 Slick and now a 2.5 Slick. Many people like to be constantly powered, I don't, I like to have just enough to get upwind for the next swell then the smallest wing possible for the downwind run. The 2.5 Slick is a dream to use in anything over 20knots. I'm 80kg on a 78 Ltd board.

Quiver size and increments really depends on your location and chosen disciplines. The freestyle guys at our local will be on 5mtr wings when I'm on a 3.3.

It's always good to have plenty of overlap in sizes, means that if the wind drops slightly or you have a fail on pump up your not screwed. If your 5 fails on pump up, and you only have a 3, your stuffed, but a 4 will probably get you going, and if your 4 fails, the 3 or 5 can be used.

radair

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2021, 08:58:49 AM »
I currently have the Armstrong A-wings in 3.5, 4.5 and 5.5 m sizes (V1 models). I thought the 4.5 would be my go-to wing but I find that most of the time it's either light or nuking and I'm at one end or the other. In fact there have been many summer days when the 5.5 feels inadequate, and fall & winter storms when our whole crew is wanting smaller wings.

I've only been winging since January and my low wind skills are not great for getting on foil, but getting better. I hate being underpowered, but the wing size I need to get going is greater than what I need once on foil (need to improve, I know). I would love to pick up smaller and larger wings but don't really want to be carting around 5 wings in my van, which has been home for about 3 1/2 months in 2021. It's a little tight in there with 2 foil boards, a bag of foils & masts, wetsuits, an inflatable SUP and a mountain bike. First world problems for sure!

For now I'm going to hold off and hope that developing material and design technology will provide more overlap in the next couple of years.

juandesooka

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Re: What makes a quiver?
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2021, 11:07:31 AM »
If we're being honest about it, the depth of your quiver depends mostly on what you can afford or are willing to pay.  I see this most clearly in the BRM kite crew, with their 0.5 increments for foiling with really tiny kites.  It seems a little obsessive/excessive, but hey, if you got the $$ and it makes you happy, go for it.

An OG kiter friend evolved into a 1 kite quiver which seemed insane to me.  But he made it work.  He mainly kited in the optimal wind range. He was skilled enough to deal with being both OP and UP.  And then when wind too light or too strong, he did other stuff instead, as he no longer needed to be on it every single day. 

Arguing the other side, having a wide quiver spreads your use per wing/kite, and means your quiver lasts twice as long OR you can turn it over faster and have it retain more value.  I run a 4/6 quiver, but if I add a 5, then I use each wing 30% less.  So if want to trade up in a year, they are worth 75% of value not 50%.  So having the luxury of that 5m in between is probably half paid for by that math.

For kiting I run a 2m gap and carried this forward to winging. It means I have to choose and am regularly just over or under powered. I commonly end up rigging both my 6 and 4 and switch off during a session, given our fickle wind ranges.  For kiting my solution was that I always brought twin tip, surfboard, foil to beach and I'd often use all 3 in a session as the wind changed.  Equivalent in winging would be quick changes on foil wing sizes, or having a 2nd board rigged n ready. 

 


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