Author Topic: Melted it. I'm an idiot.  (Read 4047 times)

TallDude

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2021, 02:47:34 PM »
Wow! I was camping the past week with no service. I would have been crying had I known. I sold an unlimited Richmond that I had cared for, and the owner before me had cared for for years. The guy I sold it to left it in the sun and blew the whole rail out. He asked me if I could fix it....... It's a lot of work. Plus the older Richmonds and some Barks are sealed with one thin coat epoxy but hot coated with polyester resin. The epoxy coat prevents the polyester resin from melting the EPS foam. Sometimes epoxy and poly don't laminate well to each other....

You are not an idiot, just learned your lesson the hard way. BUT you're on top of and it looks like you can salvage it. May not be as pretty. Use light weight spackle to seal the foam when you get it all finished shaped. That seals the voids in the foam. I just smear it on with my hand, let it dry and light hand sand. Then roll or brush a thin coat of epoxy and use micro ballon additive if you can get it. Next epoxy laminate on layer of 6 oz 3K carbon fiber with a layer of 4 oz E glass over the CF.

From there you sand smooth. Lots of sanding... A lot! But don't sand in the same spot for more that a few seconds or you'll delaiminate what you just laminated. Just keep moving with the sander so the area you just did can cool before you hit it again.  At this point you can paint it white, then seal it with a 2K epoxy clear spray finish, or just 2K the black CF finish. The white will greatly reduce the chance reapeating this mess.

Here is a similar project I did a long time ago... https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,18700.msg179150.html#msg179150
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 02:50:21 PM by TallDude »
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

TallDude

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2021, 03:01:22 PM »
One more note on the sanding. The sanding discs load up with epoxy in a matter of minutes. The sanding disc will look new still, but it's totally clogged with resin. That just heats the board and no longer sands it. So change the disc every few minutes of sanding. On my unlimited I used probably 30 or 40 sanding discs. Hand sand the rails with 220.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

deepmud

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2021, 11:31:27 PM »
I would have been crying had I known.
man - when I pulled the tarp aside - punch in the gut. HeartSICK. And it was my fault. Man, that was a bad moment.

Use light weight spackle to seal the foam when you get it all finished shaped.
I was reading that and - what - like, Home Depot stuff? Read your link, did more research - wasn't really sure what type till I picked up the big bucket of Dap Final Finish (I think :D ah - Fast and Final) - the bucket that feels nearly empty when full - yeah ok I get it. Must be made up of particles of helium. Watered it down with distilled water per other sites/youtube instructions - it's outside under a  tarp drying.

I finally figured out just today what Davidjohn was saying before about shaping it down - like, get rid of a bit of foam instead of building it back up. Heck that might have been great - if I could be sure to keep the rocker correct. Plenty of volume in this big board But - I will be happy if I can get it "the way it was". Really really happy.

I've been padding my Starboard more last couple weeks - I can DO a 5mph for 1 hour on it  but man it's SO much more work. :D the Bark is so easy at 5.5 mph - and so stable - I can coast and look over my shoulder without getting unstable  - I can hardly wait to get it on the water again. I hope to hit Resurection Bay/Seward this August (August is the "summer is ending" season - usually rainy/shitty lol) - It will be awesome if I do.

Next epoxy laminate on layer of 6 oz 3K carbon fiber with a layer of 4 oz E glass over the CF.
The carbon is 50" wide - might be enough for 2 layers - but the glass -it's to have a "sandable hard layer?" to protect the carbon from my and the sander, right?

should I do whole bottom in gelcoat? Cover all the black? or leave a 1" ish stripe? The top is a faded off-whiteish albedo. They don't match/won't match.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 11:34:05 PM by deepmud »

TallDude

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2021, 03:44:43 PM »
Two layers of CF is going to add a lot of weight. You only need one layer and a 4 oz E glass as a sand down coat. If you wet table it, that is going to save you the most weight. See my unlimited make over thread I posted. Gel coat will just add more weight. Makes it look pretty, but too thick. The Hobie you and my 2 other unlimiteds have a final coat of Behr glossy concrete sealer on them instead of a hot-coat or gel coat. The deck on all those boards are a light color, but the bottoms are just clear CF finish. Remember to leave them light side up when exposed to sun. Better to keep them in a shed that has air flow, than leaving them out with atarp over them. If they are covered with a tarp, just make sure air flows under the tarp and the tarp is not laying directly on them ( An air gap / space).
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

deepmud

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2021, 12:30:32 PM »
So - with the bottom gutted but the new foam/etc - it weighs 42 pounds. I emailed Joe Bark - 24 to 27 lbs new. How Cow! 15 or more POUNDS OF  WATER? Maybe my repairs weigh a couple pounds but the water must be like a gallon and a half at least. This with the bottom gutted/evaporating a couple of weeks. I knew it was heavy - a LOT heavier than the Hobie - I just thought it was a much more "built" hull. I took a 1" drill bit and punched 10 holes along the bottom - then hogged out a circle "down deep" (towards the top - imagine a "chemistry flask/cone shape").  This is down the center, not where I stand (can't stand on-center with the big Joe Bark Ridge down the middle) and makes for a lot of surface area "down inside" to release more vapor. I weighed it again after a couple of warm days - meh - maybe 41.5 pounds? I took that much weight out in damp foam bits with the drill. I decided I need to get it "fixed" - I can lose 8 or 12 pounds off my gut easier than I can fix this thing (down to 255 today! Woot! :D I have lost 35 or 40 so I think I can live with 8 or 12 in the board) - so I glued in plugs and sanded it off smooth. I went to Ben-the-canoe-builder friend for advice on what/where to get epoxy - he said it's available local, about 100 bucks a "gallon kit" (1 gal epoxy plus hardener).  Hmm. Prices just went up. It was $170. Good times. I got some microspheres powder filler and got to work filling in a final layer - I told Ben I would be able to take advantage of his kindness tonight and tomorrow as he has some time to give (8/9 - 8/10) - so I needed to have the bottom prepped by tonight. I found a thin area up near the bow I had missed - a long section was "sucked in"  - it was hard to see but sighting down the hull it looked like nearly 1/4 inch - I put a string from hight point to hight point - it shows about 1/8 ish - but it's curved out so there is more than that needed. I had a rough time getting it to hold in place - I bought "slow" hardener - it's REALLY slow. I had to put the board in my 28' camp trailer I'm remodeling  - I had to pull the front window out - it's 5" too short from stuffing it up into the bathroom from the side door to fit inside :( so I put in a heater and set it to 75  - it was 80 up off the floor. HOT. For me, 70 is hot lol. 2nd coat on the bottom took hours to harden and this time I put some clear plastic on the area needing a big fill (Note: Do not use plastic with a big/sharp crease in it :( Doh) - this held up the epoxy/microspheres paste/goop from sagging down off the side - then peeled right off. Oh - and when was stuffing the board into the front window FELT a lot lighter - like the days and days of exposure with the holes in it was paying off. Need to weigh it again before putting the bottom on. I'm still considering gelcoat. I know it's heavier - but it needs to be durable. Again - the guy on top of the board can lose more than he can save building the board lol :D . Going to do a keelstrip too - maybe kevlar if Ben has a bit to spare. So - one layer CF, keel reinforcment of "?", one layer S glass ( locally available vs E glass - but I don't know the difference. Supposed to be stronger? ). I was up to 10pm last night, baking in the trailer at 80. Up tonight and tomorrow night at Ben's shop. Wish me luck.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 12:33:25 PM by deepmud »

Badger

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2021, 01:02:38 PM »
I've tried putting epoxy/glass over pink insulation. The results were extremely heavy and even though I had plenty of layers, it cracked and punctured easily.

For fairing the hull, you might try West Systems 410 microlight fairing filler.

.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 01:08:34 PM by Badger »
Naish S26 Hover GS 125L / Axis BSC 1060 440 / Duotone Unit 5m
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 64yo

deepmud

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2021, 01:30:46 PM »
Is pink foam (blue foam same - water resistant insulation) less springy than EPS ?  It's denser/heavier I think - that would mean "tougher" - unless, EPS absorbs/distributes energy better? When all said and done - there isn't lot of pink foam here. It's 1/2" thick or so in the center and tapers out - but still. Certainly Ben-the-canoe-guy says he thinks it should have 2 layers of carbon at least. In fact, he's advocating just useing S-glass to me. He's making real-world canoes that still weigh less than 50 lbs - he expects a boat should bounce of a rock in a river. There are carbon/kevlar hybrids too - but at this point I just "want to get it done" :D I'm missing out on the last weeks of liquid water if I don't get it going soon ( Ok - I'm actually getting out on the water a lot :D but I miss the Bark ).

EDIT: IF I have any last minute fixes - I'm doing 5 minute epoxy with microspheres - I'm not waiting hours and hours lol. Or just using Dap but 5 min will be ready in like 20 minutes to sand :D
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 01:51:06 PM by deepmud »

Badger

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2021, 02:25:34 PM »
You could easily test it on a piece of scrap foam to see how puncture-resistant it is. That's what I wished I had done before I started my project.

.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 02:28:12 PM by Badger »
Naish S26 Hover GS 125L / Axis BSC 1060 440 / Duotone Unit 5m
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 64yo

deepmud

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2021, 03:05:54 PM »
Wellllll it's a bit late for me to do anything but maybe add another layer at this point. Maybe I will make a test piece but honestly - I don't have a scale of resistance-to-puncture to judge. By my standards (sea kayaks) all sups are TERRIBLE about dings and punctures. I mean - like you lean against the fender of a truck and it crumples - that's how I see all hard-sups. WEAK! :D I'd go hollow/from a mold/45lbs-sure-if-it's-tough in a second. Heck I'd go 50 pounds - I've been swinging 42-plus around all summer happy as a clam :)  - but every time I hear from Talldude it's "keep the weight down" so I was going single carbons/single glass. What would you do? I'm going to go pick up glass today - If I knew what it would add  - 5 lbs? 10? I might got 2 layers glass right off the bat and keep the hull sturdy.

Badger

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2021, 03:48:19 PM »
If you make a test scrap board, try pushing a nail into it.  It would take a lot of pressure for me to puncture a SUP with a nail just using my hand. Try it with a few different objects and you should be able to get an idea of how strong or weak your glass layers are.  Hit it with a hammer.  Try to simulate the board hitting a sharp rock.

.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 04:16:11 PM by Badger »
Naish S26 Hover GS 125L / Axis BSC 1060 440 / Duotone Unit 5m
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 64yo

TallDude

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2021, 04:34:12 PM »
I've never used EPX foam. It doesn't state the density (ie 1 pound EPS) anywhere I could find regarding PINK EPX foam board. The S glass is a lot stronger fabric, but it's usually used as part of a composite (ie S-glass / 1/8" PVC foam (aka 'divinycell') / S-glass) system. These are vacuum bagged on layup, and become rock proof. Slide it up on shore. Plus super light. If you are doing just a hand layup (no V-bag), then on layer of 5.8oz CF and a 4oz layer of E -glass is fine. Stiff and light. I sanded and sanded pounds of epoxy off my race board to get it as light as possible. That Hobie you have is built the same way. Lapping it over the rails really gives it a lot of strength. I wouldn't just do the bottom. I even put an extra strip of CF over my rails. The board doesn't flex much for being 18' long. 
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

deepmud

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2021, 09:33:32 PM »
Well
It's not like I am going to strip out the pink foam now. It's what I could get. Plus, puncture and impact resistance is more about the layers of cf and fiberglass than the foam. No sup I have had/seen/touched is good after hitting a rock. They all suck at that.

I am going to try s glass over carbon-innegra for impact resistance plus rigidity over most of the bottom and extra layers of fiberglass one the bow and stern. Extra weight? It was 42 pounds after I stripped the belly out of it and it had been warm a week. Tonight I checked again and it was 32 pounds. The holes must have worked after sitting another week. It certainly FEELS lighter. At this point if I get the board back whole and it feels no worse than it was(it was heavy) , I'm good. The carbon-innegra is 7 oz, whatever that means in the end. S-glass is 6 oz.

deepmud

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2021, 06:57:58 PM »
Correction: Not carbon-Innegra - that was the hybrid cloth I was shown at the local plastic/fiberglass shop - where a 1 gallon epoxy plus 206 slow hardener kit is $170  :o
Ben had basalt-Innegra (Basalt? Like the rock that makes columns? Yes)  in his shop - that's what we went with. Plus overlaid with fiberglass. Hard edge where I cut the green fabric  - on the top I faired in with epoxy mixed with fumed-silica - I think that plus a thin layer of gel-coat white to hide my worst goobers will make me happy enough. The board keeps losing water weight - I think I can end up with the repaired board lighter than the water-logged board - I will think it's wonderful.

It looks like a watercraft again - I was sort of emotional about it. I mean - I've enjoyed pushing myself on the Hobie the last few weeks - that thing is pretty fast on flatwater despite being a big banana/planing hull.  But it's not the Bark. Soon as any winds kick up they push me around on the Hobie - the Bark is a seaworthy craft and I can't wait to get it out again.

TallDude

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2021, 07:23:10 PM »
Nice job.. The Basalt / Innegra is a super strong fabric. PITA to work with. The bark is almost back in action. You can add a keel fin to the Hobie and it'll handle the quartered wind better. Add a rudder... even better. When the open ocean is moving around and you're dropping into troughs, the sharp nose on the Bark will grab and toss you. The Hobie is designed to splash, rebound and slide through the troughs. It's an open ocean board. 
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

deepmud

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Re: Melted it. I'm an idiot.
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2021, 08:54:03 PM »
40 days and 40 nights...thereabouts..... I am so happy this was possible. It's as stable as I remember and I pulled of a 5k in about 35 minutes . It has tie downs galore now too.

 


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