Author Topic: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions  (Read 23566 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2021, 12:40:52 PM »
I wanna build one of these boards with XPS and just cut it til I find the limit of what I can ride. Our crew has been discussing this as a way to prototype without having to glass up 4 boards only to find out they are wrong.

Iím also not convinced the way we build boards is right or the final iteration of this whole thing. Tiny canoes made of fragile composites. Longboard boxes are a joke. Thereís got to be a better way to do all of this. That guy is a prophet lol.

Hence my test mule. A good example of the wrong board is the right board. This SIC board has way too much tail rocker, and the nose and tail are pulled in a lot. That made it ideal to experiment with gluing on slabs of blue foam and trimming them to be what I want. I've added a sliding bevel cutter and a big C-shaped hotwire cutter to trace templates. I've got a roll of Formica that I didn't need for my stupid moho project, and it turns out to be great for making templates. I cut it with a saber saw and sand the edges. If you push the wire against it it doesn't notch and grab the wire as wood veneer does. I don't know what temperature this stuff melts at, but nichrome wire doesn't get into the same zip code.

With the pulled-in tail, I have lots of room for variations, and the tail rocker let me try all kinds of shit that didn't work. I'm glaring at the nose now, thinking I should try some flatter nose variations, but I think the rocker is actually helpful. the flat tail raises the rear end and shoves the nose down.

I do note that the foil position seems much less critical with the flat tail. I can't help but think if I were building a board for myself I wouldn't use mast tracks. I'd use spools built up out of nesting carbon fiber tubes glassed into the deck and bottom--the same way I weld tubing inside hollow metal structures (like racecar A-arms) to allow through bolting without crushing. No PVC, no mast tracks. It would take some design fiddling to make it lighter, but it certainly can be. As long as you didn't need adjustability it would be fine.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dontsink

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2021, 01:02:13 PM »
See this Ponobill,very similar to what you wrote.
https://kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=196&t=2388827&p=896007&hilit=Through+bolt#p896007

I was planning to do this to an old surfboard but then Gong discounted the Matata EPS and i took the easy way.


Dwight (DW)

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2021, 03:30:38 PM »
So friggin pathetic today I had to use my 5í1 x 28.5 straight tail SUP to wing in 5 to 13 mph wind. The SUP version has more planing surface than my personal wing board.

https://youtu.be/0jVRiEjpbzs

pafoil

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2021, 12:13:45 PM »
In my humble opinion, straight tails full square rails are the best solution for flat water.
But, in waves, jumping, etc; we will see a lot of new designs and "magic" concepts; definitely not square.
I'm pointing to under 19 inches wide and pintail on my new board.
Will see.

Wingfoil2001

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #64 on: August 29, 2021, 12:51:33 PM »
I only wing in above 15 knots, 4 mtr is my biggest wing at 80kg, Iím currently on a 95ltr Naish. Having never tried a straight tail board, just wondering if there is much of an advantage for high wind swell riding as that is all I do.

gone_foiling

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #65 on: August 29, 2021, 12:56:12 PM »
I only wing in above 15 knots, 4 mtr is my biggest wing at 80kg, Iím currently on a 95ltr Naish. Having never tried a straight tail board, just wondering if there is much of an advantage for high wind swell riding as that is all I do.

Probably not. Once you have proper wind a bedroom door will fly nicely too.
Addicted to foiling at the moment.
My shenanigans on insta @gone_foiling

PonoBill

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #66 on: August 29, 2021, 10:59:40 PM »
If you need stability and a longer/wider sweet spot, the flat tail is worthwhile. If you're riding HA wings and need a lot of speed to take off, then flat tail is worthwhile. Otherwise, everything works. Once you're up in the air it would be nice if the board would disappear. Someday we might do this like J.O.B. --taking off on a disposable Wavestorm and switching to a tiny shortboard. Or maybe an inflatable sofa.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Califoilia

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2021, 12:44:21 AM »
Not to be left behind, I too got into the "Flat Tail Follies". ;D
5'4x27x102L

Seemed to paddle as expected yesterday the first time out with it, but my mast setup/guess was wrong, and the conditions were pretty mixed up for a decent comparison on how well it lifted off and surfed.

Might have had the mast too far back, as I found myself having to move my feet so far forward just to get it to level out to keep from stalling once in the air, but that might have been just the really wonky conditions I was fighting against...just have to see. 🤔
Update: Yep, the mast was too far back, and is still too far back jammed all the way forward in the boxes.  :(

Somewhere along the way I was told that with a straight tail board the boxes need to go way back from where they'd usually be, so I called in a late change order, and had them installed 2" further back from where I originally wanted/need them (the bolts/t-nuts are actually an inch too far forward when I redid the math after taking the picture)...

...and that was still 3" farther forward than they were "supposed to be", but I just couldn't bring myself to move them - that - far back. :o

So while they might need to go waaay back for winging (have to wait on some wind for that report), but that's not at all the case for surf/sup foiling. Either that, or I completely misunderstood to whole straight tail/boxes thing that was explained to me. :-[

Because while it paddles and gets off the water really well as expected, but once in flight, I don't have the lift/glide I'd usually have with the boxes in their normal, further forward position. The only why to keep it up with the slower waves we've had recently, was to continually pump it. Getting it in and out of turns was miserably slow and clunky as well.

So back to the shop to get them moved forward, and reassess after that. Fortunately we ran the dual stringers far enough forward, so at least the R&R won't be too extensive of a job...fingers crossed.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2021, 01:01:37 AM by Califoilia »
Me: 6'1"/180...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'4" Kings Wing Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

juandesooka

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2021, 08:47:17 AM »
The center of the foil box is at 14.5".  That seems in the ballpark for a 5.4.  If anything, my guess would have been a little further forward than optimal. 

If you have your back foot directly over the mast, your front foot is something like 2.5' in front of that, see where the stance will be on your board if you move it forward further. You will be getting pretty close to the nose. 

If you are needing to move your feet far forward to keep the foil in the water surfing, then could it be you are using a foil wing too big for the waves you're in?  For my high aspect foil, I am using same size for winging as for surf/sup foil. But with low aspect, I used one size larger for wing than for surf/sup, to get the extra lift -- but with the cost that it took a lot of front foot pressure to keep the foil in the water if in more significant swells.

Before you start cutting into this, you might want to do more investigation....measure the distance for other people's boards. Or go online, print out a photo of boards you like, and scale the drawing to figure out distance from tail.   




jondrums

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2021, 01:41:02 PM »
I've been playing with a lot of straight tail shapes in the computer, but I don't like the look of the rocker line that results yet.  @califoilia any way you could share the rocker line you arrived at?

Califoilia

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2021, 02:13:55 PM »
The center of the foil box is at 14.5".  That seems in the ballpark for a 5.4.  If anything, my guess would have been a little further forward than optimal. 

If you have your back foot directly over the mast, your front foot is something like 2.5' in front of that, see where the stance will be on your board if you move it forward further. You will be getting pretty close to the nose. 

If you are needing to move your feet far forward to keep the foil in the water surfing, then could it be you are using a foil wing too big for the waves you're in?  For my high aspect foil, I am using same size for winging as for surf/sup foil. But with low aspect, I used one size larger for wing than for surf/sup, to get the extra lift -- but with the cost that it took a lot of front foot pressure to keep the foil in the water if in more significant swells.

Before you start cutting into this, you might want to do more investigation....measure the distance for other people's boards. Or go online, print out a photo of boards you like, and scale the drawing to figure out distance from tail.
Thanks juan, and yes, the location of the boxes are pretty much determined through a formula that a buddy and myself came up with several years ago when we started going shorter, and shorter with our boards...and the past three boards I've setup (6'0, 5'7, and 5'1) have been spot on (give or take an 1/8-1/4 of an inch here or there)...he's done three boards also doing the same thing, and he's had no problem either. This was the first one I deviated using that on, and low and behold. 🤷‍♂️😁

It's basically under the premise, that we had setup of our original longer boards (7'+) through trial and error some 4+ years ago, and did the same when we went down several inches to our next ones. But one slow wave day at the beach, we broke out a tape measure, and started doing comparisons. What we found, was that our masts, and front foot straps were almost in the same location on the shorter boards in relation to the longer boards...the only difference was that the noses and tails had just "X" amount of inches missing fore and aft from where we were standing on them compared to the longer boards.

IOWs, if we went from a 6'0 to a 5'8 for example, that's 4" in total length difference, so we'd divide that by 2, and measured mast and foot strap locations accordingly. What we found, was that we're standing on the mast and in the foot straps in relatively the same place of the balance point of the board, just with two inches missing in front, and behind us. I say "relatively", because we use a certain percentage of the overall length of the board to get the mast location, and then measure foot strap placement accordingly from the center of it to account for our individual stance lengths.

So yes, as the boards get shorter and shorter, the mast is getting a percentage closer to the tail each time, and our front foot is getting closer and closer to the nose. This is similar to how/why prone guys are almost standing on the nose of their boards with their rear feet still over or slightly ahead of the center of the mast. You can't expect to have your feet the same distance from the nose, when the nose is now however many inches closer to the center of the board, and at least for myself, I still want my rear foot placement over the mast to be the same with the same stance length...so I have to have the mast mounted on the board accordingly to account for that, and my stance width.

That's why I said that I needed to go forward with the mast on this one, because for me stand with my foot on or slightly ahead of the mast, I have too much body weight on the rear of the board, and it doesn't want to "push over" and fly level. The only way for me to do that, is to move way forward on the board to balance it in flight, and then I'm so far in front from the center of the mast, causing it to turn terribly, and I have to keep pumping it since it doesn't want to glide level with the smaller area, HA wings that I fly in comparison to others out there (Axis 810 and 890 on a crazy short fuse with either the 380, 400HA, or 420 tails).

Hope that makes some sort of sense in the written word, much easier to show, and explain on the beach...because I know I've confused, or left something out in the translation. Lol :D

Me: 6'1"/180...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'4" Kings Wing Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

Califoilia

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #71 on: September 01, 2021, 02:18:49 PM »
I've been playing with a lot of straight tail shapes in the computer, but I don't like the look of the rocker line that results yet.  @califoilia any way you could share the rocker line you arrived at?
I've taken the tail rocker completely out of the last 6 boards I've designed. So I arrived at zero a long time ago. :D
Me: 6'1"/180...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'4" Kings Wing Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

jondrums

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2021, 08:02:50 PM »
armstrong rocker looks nice to the eye, but I see what you mean about zero rocker on the tail.  It looks like the foil will be mounted on upward sloping tail and all the rocker will be slow to plane.


Solent Foiler

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2021, 03:09:11 AM »
armstrong rocker looks nice to the eye, but I see what you mean about zero rocker on the tail.  It looks like the foil will be mounted on upward sloping tail and all the rocker will be slow to plane.

Don't forget that the Armstrong boxes are way forward on their new boards so the foil will likely be more parallel to the deck than the tail rocker pictured would suggest...
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
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finbox

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Re: Straight tail Wingfoil board opinions
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2021, 08:09:21 AM »
Califoilia - it seems like you are making the case for an anglefoil on a small board --https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,33902.15.html -
or as option #2 Perhaps you need to ride with a rear & front strap to add that you can pull up on your rear foot

 


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