Author Topic: Foildrive motor  (Read 4902 times)

Phils

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2021, 10:15:43 AM »
I think these folks implemented some really good ideas for this concept.  It will only get better.

juandesooka

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2021, 08:00:09 AM »
I'm not likely to buy one, but I might build one. I've been wondering what I should do with my spare foil motor--one is for the TowBot. I think I've settled on this. I've got a big box of LiFe 26mm cells that I didn't use for my MoHo battery (went with two Tesla modules instead). The mast clamp is sized for a 16cm mast. I'll either open it up to handle 19cm or get a 16cm Axis mast. This motor and reduction gear is sized for a high-speed efoil, so it's a bit of overkill as a booster, but I've got it, might as well go with it. It looks, heavy, but it's not. Good motor and a reduction gear.

Good excuse to build a board too.

This is a toy that I would love to have but can't justify the $. Ain't gonna happen.  I also don't the skills or inclination to learn to DIY it (and my foil DIYing has shown pretty clearly it ends up more expensive than just buying  :P )

I am curious Pono, for someone who knows what they are doing, what do the parts add up to?  If the marketed foil drive is $3k, are the parts half of it? 


PonoBill

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2021, 08:54:57 AM »
If they plan to go through distribution and dealers it better be more like 1/3 of the retail price, otherwise perhaps half. Quantity produced matters hugely with a product like this. Tooling and prototypes can easily cost $20-50K. The more you can use already existing stuff, the less that will cost, though the more the final cost of goods will be dictated by other suppliers.

It would cost me about that much to DIY one starting from scratch. Those aluminum motor/gearbox ones cost me $1000 each and that was an extremely good price. Still needs a controller, a wireless throttle, and a battery.

I ponied up for one of these on Kickstarter a few years ago: https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/. According to the site, they are still working away on delivering. They raised about $2.5 million with a preorder price of around 200 bucks. I suspect these might be almost as effective for foil boosting and the pre-order price is now about 300 bucks. It's an open question whether or not this actually gets delivered, but the price is more in line with a product that could be sold in larger quantities. There's no question this can be delivered for the price--it's a lower spec, looking at a likely much bigger market. Battery, motor, housing, prop, and single-function controller. Not much different in tooling and component cost from a new 20 Volt lithium drill which sell in mass quantities for 130 bucks. In fact, they could (and maybe should) have looked at using a hefty wireless tool battery in a waterproof case to power the thing. Quick swapping, readily available, multiple uses. I like it. I powered an eBike with DeWalt drill batteries just screwing around. It was actually kind of practical.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 09:17:33 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

juandesooka

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2021, 10:52:54 AM »
If they plan to go through distribution and dealers it better be more like 1/3 of the retail price, otherwise perhaps half. Quantity produced matters hugely with a product like this. Tooling and prototypes can easily cost $20-50K. The more you can use already existing stuff, the less that will cost, though the more the final cost of goods will be dictated by other suppliers.

It would cost me about that much to DIY one starting from scratch. Those aluminum motor/gearbox ones cost me $1000 each and that was an extremely good price. Still needs a controller, a wireless throttle, and a battery.

I ponied up for one of these on Kickstarter a few years ago: https://boostsurfing.com/preorder/. According to the site, they are still working away on delivering. They raised about $2.5 million with a preorder price of around 200 bucks. I suspect these might be almost as effective for foil boosting and the pre-order price is now about 300 bucks. It's an open question whether or not this actually gets delivered, but the price is more in line with a product that could be sold in larger quantities. There's no question this can be delivered for the price--it's a lower spec, looking at a likely much bigger market. Battery, motor, housing, prop, and single-function controller. Not much different in tooling and component cost from a new 20 Volt lithium drill which sell in mass quantities for 130 bucks. In fact, they could (and maybe should) have looked at using a hefty wireless tool battery in a waterproof case to power the thing. Quick swapping, readily available, multiple uses. I like it. I powered an eBike with DeWalt drill batteries just screwing around. It was actually kind of practical.

Foildrive....I suspect they are actually quite reasonably priced given the tech involved.  Full efoils are 10-12k, the china knock offs are still 5k, so I think we are talking expensive parts.  The people posting about them in oz are all raving...so they work and seem decent quality. I can't really justify the $, but seems like fair value.

Boost...I am on the kickstarter waiting plan too.  They look kind of weak/slow compared to foildrive. I fully believe in "you get what you pay for" ... so I am a little doubtful about how much power and durability we'll be getting for $200.  I am hopeful that it'll be just barely enough juice to get up on foil in 8kts or on waves that wall up and don't quite break. Where my pumping or paddle power are nearly there, so just a short quick boost I may be up and gone.  We'll see.  I have been pestering them for months to send me a prototype so me and my geek foil army can macgyver up a foil version.  But they won't bite.  My selling point to them is that the foil market may have real potential for them, if it opens up possibilities. They are focused on the surf market, which is indeed multiples bigger....but as a lifetime surfer, their promotion and the testimonials are so cringey/kooky it's hard to watch.   At least with foiling the goal is a performance enhancement.  Feels like emphasizing this as a way to avoid learning to paddle or get in surfing shape is a mistake. As well, the extra drag with the fin always in the water, I doubt it'll work well enough to feel good for even an intermediate surfer.

Anyways....I am excited to see what the possibilities may be for e-assisted foiling.  :D

burchas

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2021, 04:23:58 PM »
...This motor and reduction gear is sized for a high-speed efoil, so it's a bit of overkill as a booster, but I've got it, might as well go with it...

Nice experiment! In case it didn't work you're still left with 2 amphibious dildos, probably an overkill but hey, you are a large man :D
in progress...

PonoBill

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2021, 07:45:18 AM »
I spent a little time browsing the site. Spare parts are always expensive, but wow. The battery pack for this thing looks like it might cost $150 with a 100% markup. It's 600 bucks. The nutty prices for eFoils are probably driving the pricing. With Lift eFoils still selling for $12,000 there's a lot of room in the necessarily small market for making big margin. This thing looks like it's fundamentally assembled from standard parts. You can buy a new jetski for $5K, and at 12K you're well into the fancy-schmancy high power ones. Sure, you have to find a buddy to sling yourself into waves

But yeah, if you want one, have at it, but that dinky 19v, 10Ah battery pack is going to poop out a LOT sooner than you expect. That's the size of the flight pack for a large drone multicopter. Turnigy sells a 6s 10A pack for $120 retail (no BMS). If I do this silly thing I'd want at least 20ah. Lift's pack is about 100AH (I'm guessing, they're coy about it, but they say 2.1KW, at 20V that's 100AH. Lift wants $4k for a replacement battery--yikes). Anyone who has ridden an eFoil knows that a lot of the power consumption happens lifting your ass off the water. Once you're up you need to throttle down substantially. This thing is just for lifting--not for running. I'd expect maybe 5-10 lifts.

As a geek, I'm offended by the lack of solid information on the website, as a marketer I say kudos, these folks bullshit with the best of them.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

WHS

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2021, 09:13:39 AM »
This is a great concept at an marketable price point. I suspect it may not be the best value and trust PonoBill's opinion above. They may be greedy or maybe they just aren't getting very good component pricing. This is a great idea and like most great ideas will be stolen and made better and cheaper by someone else. Hopefully (for them) they are already working on a improved version for the same cost.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 09:15:43 AM by WHS »

SUPJorge

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2021, 02:50:35 PM »
Check this out, effectively flat water:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R80rzt5Dmw

PB, how much for you to make me one of these?  ;) Alternatively, I'm sidelined for a couple months due to SUP surf-induced shoulder surgery. Can you give me How-To instructions ...
14' SIC Bullet V2 - 9'1" Naish Hokua X32 LE

Hdip

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2021, 04:17:27 PM »
Alternatively, I'm sidelined for a couple months due to SUP surf-induced shoulder surgery. Can you give me How-To instructions ...

This thread doesn't have directions. But all the DIY efoil guys post here. It's way over my head, but I'm pretty sure if you go through a few of the "tow boogie" threads you will find directions and links on how to buy and build all that stuff.

https://foil.zone/t/foil-drive-assist-diy/12927/7

PonoBill

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2021, 05:50:13 PM »
Check this out, effectively flat water:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R80rzt5Dmw

PB, how much for you to make me one of these?  ;) Alternatively, I'm sidelined for a couple months due to SUP surf-induced shoulder surgery. Can you give me How-To instructions ...

You don't need me. These parts plug together and deliver about the same thrust for a lot longer. You need the battery box kit and whatever 12 V motor drive you want to plug into it. Plug and pray.



Search for: 40AH battery box for electric motor power fin SUP BOARD propeller power source on Ali Express. The motor system sown in the ad plugs right in. You can do the whole thing for less than 900 bucks.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

juandesooka

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2021, 11:16:26 PM »


Search for: 40AH battery box for electric motor power fin SUP BOARD propeller power source on Ali Express. The motor system sown in the ad plugs right in. You can do the whole thing for less than 900 bucks.

Link to the deal....this may be just the battery
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001834152172.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.33a22960hI0vUu&algo_pvid=d6a2fe2c-b35a-4318-838d-797d66d2a1f8&algo_exp_id=d6a2fe2c-b35a-4318-838d-797d66d2a1f8-0

tempting! But my rule is never ali without a first hand report :-)



juandesooka

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2021, 11:01:34 AM »
the ali version appears to be same as this name brand one.  Seems to be same price. And there's very little info or reviews out there, definitely no foilers I can find.  I am intrigued, the price is halfway between boost fit and foil drive...but is the quality?  Still seems too risky without a first hand report.

https://www.aquamarina.com/bluedrive-s/

juandesooka

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2021, 02:19:00 PM »
Talking to myself here because no one else will listen  :P

From foilzone, description of foildrive specs: "Itís a 6374 motor 120~300kv, Maytech remote (you donít need one, you can get a 20$ e-skate remote) you will need a 6s battery, 120~150A 3s-6s RC boat ESC like FlyColor, 3D printed prop, 3D printed mastclamp, you can build that whole setup for less than 300$, please do your own further research, youíre welcome."  Google those terms and it's basically an e-skateboard setup.  That's really interesting. It is probably over ambitious to attempt it. But would be a fun experiment.

Also from foildrive, seems W is a key measure (watts I am guessing).  Need 2000-3000W to get up.  Foildrive, if motor above is correct, is 3250W.  Boost fin is 800W.  That aquamarina is 240W....so it's useless junk, which is what I assumed given lack of any actual user reviews.


WHS

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2021, 06:12:26 PM »
Talking to myself here because no one else will listen  :P

From foilzone, description of foildrive specs: "Itís a 6374 motor 120~300kv, Maytech remote (you donít need one, you can get a 20$ e-skate remote) you will need a 6s battery, 120~150A 3s-6s RC boat ESC like FlyColor, 3D printed prop, 3D printed mastclamp, you can build that whole setup for less than 300$, please do your own further research, youíre welcome."

I've tried searching around on foilzone and I could never make sense of all the options and how to  research putting it all together. Wish someone would just sell complete wired units (like the Foildrive) with higher end motors and batterys instead of incomplete kits like Flipski sells.

surfcowboy

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Re: Foildrive motor
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2021, 11:06:50 PM »
Itís not that hard with a little research to sort out what to buy but yeah when you first start reading itís daunting. Iíd start a thread and get advice. Sounds like youíre about halfway there as it it from the foil geekís list. (Iím reading this one man lol.)

If itís looking like $300 then itís worth a try. I donít have a 3D printer but Iíll bet youíve got a friend who does. The tow boogie was like this and then guys got together and made a spreadsheet of what to buy and now itís fairly straight forward. Make it happen!! I might put a front fin on my Wing board and try to SUP it. ;)

 


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