Author Topic: SUP surf foil board design?  (Read 2093 times)

SUPdad

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SUP surf foil board design?
« on: May 04, 2021, 12:57:04 AM »
I saw DWís latest video about his new wing boards and he mentioned that he tried one in the surf with a paddle. I may try winging again but Iím not too interested right now. Anyway, I liked the board design and went to his website and took a look.

I like the square tail and mostly flat bottom theory. Iíve been looking around for a new board to replace my Kalama. I have no interest in downwinding (too old and too out of shape :o) but I do want to someday be able to catch either super small waves or waves that havenít quite broken. So, Iím kinda thinking that a downwind style board may be what I want in the surf. Something that paddles relatively fast, and where you can sink the tail a bit while paddling to get on foil. 

I think the balance point on my 6íx29Ē Kalama is a bit too forward, meaning where I stand to paddle it doesnít allow me to get much weight on the tail. Maybe I need more flotation on the backend of the board so I can stand further back?  Not sure if this is the result of the length of the board or the distribution of foam? Or mast placement being not far enough forward?  But maybe you donít want or need to be able to sink the tail to get on foil early? 

Anyway, I guess my thoughts arenít very well organized here. ;D Kind of just thinking out loud, wondering what the best design might be for my next board. So many variables and so many unknowns.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2021, 07:07:13 AM »
I think wanting to sink the tail isnít the best mental approach. Think of getting on foil like this. You need to be above the stall speed of the foil, whatever that is. It can be very low or high.

You donít want to be one of those guys who rises, then plops back down, they repeats, and repeats, not getting it. So think about sampling the lift by unweighting your front foot to judge the foils lift. Are you above stall speed, is there enough to lift yet, if you get airborne? This thought process will help a lot when moving from low performance, to faster high performance gear.

Kalama SUPs are designed very neutral in balance. The tracks are very far forward, more so than many other brands. Also with rocker all the way. This may or may not be your style.




surfcowboy

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2021, 08:00:27 AM »
Agree with DW. Let the foil lift you and learn to feel that. If you think about it, back foot pressure slows you down which is the opposite of what you want to catch waves earlier.

In winging Iíve started doing the unweighting the front foot move heís describing and itís really effective. Staying in trim on the board is key I would think. At my age I donít have the paddle power to push myself against a board trimmed at an angle.

jondrums

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2021, 01:42:17 PM »
yeah, if you want to catch waves early, I think you want a little longer board with less rocker and a bit less wide.  You want as much paddle speed as possible - glide.  Rocker can really kill things here - same deal as with regular SUP boards where "glide" comes from long wide and minimal rocker.

SUPdad

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2021, 09:02:32 PM »
Thanks for the replies. Youíve probably all seen guys paddling for a wave and it looks almost like theyíre behind the peak and then they paddle/pump up and then accelerate over the top and take off. Iíve done it but maybe once in 50 attempts. :o This could be in small or bigger surf, just when youíre outside where it starts to break. I guess what Iím wondering is what design aspects will make this easier?  Probably relatively short, somewhat narrow, less rocker. But what about volume distribution?  Thicker tail or thin?  Flat square tail or beveled?

jondrums

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2021, 03:02:46 PM »
yes - I'm doing this type of take-off with some regularity now.  I guess there are three take-offs: 1) whitewater takeoff 2) regular surfing takeoff in the pit of the wave 3) early takeoff pumping into the peak

You think you want to do more of type 3 takeoffs, but actually, I think you would be better off optimizing your board to make type 3 takeoffs into type 2 takeoffs.  Essentially, the paddle speed of your board is what would allow you to catch a wave in the pit further out before it breaks without having to gut into the peak with paddle and foil pumping. 


jondrums

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2021, 03:04:02 PM »
but to answer your question, more rocker and shorter does help a lot with pumping into waves from the peak or just behind the peak.  For these, it isn't about paddle speed, its about getting the board moving up and down and engaging the pump of the foil.  So shorter, lighter, better release on the underside.

SUPdad

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2021, 06:49:09 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts. I believe youíre right, ideally #2 takeoff rather than #3. My Kalama is 6í and barely fits in the bed of my truck so I donít want anything longer.  That may not leave many options?  Could go narrower and less rocker, but not sure if that would be enough.

So that may lead to a board more for #3...which ends up probably needing the opposite variables. A lot of times I feel I could pump myself onto a wave if I could stand further back when paddling into it. When Iíve tried, seems all I do is sink the tail and itís very hard to keep standing. That makes no sense whatsoever. ;D Maybe all I really need is a shorter board with a decent design.

pafoil

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2021, 10:31:55 PM »
Hi,
I have the same kalama, it's just too heavy.
My path has been, heavy board- then bigger foil to compensate- broken mast in waves- then order a new 5.9 by 24 (waiting for it).
Why 5.9? it needs to fit in the car  :D :)

Beasho

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2021, 07:14:46 AM »
yes - I'm doing this type of take-off with some regularity now.  I guess there are three take-offs: 1) whitewater takeoff 2) regular surfing takeoff in the pit of the wave 3) early takeoff pumping into the peak

Jon I think you should mention how many sessions you have on a foil.  People may watch others do superhuman things and not realize they have 200, 300, 400+ Sessions meaning 1,000's and 1,000's of waves and attempts.

I am now pumping up on almost nothing on a 6' board.  Crawling into unbroken waves from behind on a board that I couldn't even catch a wave on 18 months ago.  Aka too short, sensitive to foot positioning . . .  Now I go out and catch almost any wave in crappy choppy conditions.  BUT I have 500+ sessions and more than 6,000 waves on a foil.  Keep at it.   

jondrums

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2021, 10:36:09 AM »
one thing I can say for absolute sure, weight is a huge factor.  The lighter the better.  I suggest you learn to repair your own dings ASAP, and plan to do so every few sessions so you can ask for a lighter weight layup with lighter foam. 

I've been waiting a long time for the SUPfoil board world to go the way of windsurfing with the high end PVC sandwich construction, but barely anyone is doing it.    I have a ONE ocean sports board that is absolutely bulletproof and under 13#.  I'm not happy with the shape, but pumping out of the water and flying, the weight is immediately noticeable.

I believe its 1# foam covered with fiberglass 1/4" PVC and carbon outer.  So stiff and light.

PonoBill

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2021, 01:05:48 PM »
Jimmy Lewis boards are generally real sandwich boards (as opposed to boards using the sandwich term to mean anything other than a basic fiberglass schedule). Their boards are evolving a little slower as a result--it takes a lot of time to developed a full sandwich board. . Flying Dutchman boards are very light, NOT sandwich, but are quite strong for their weight, and they evolve every time Mark makes another. we are all his beta testers--unless we specify exactly what we want.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Califoilia

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Re: SUP surf foil board design?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2021, 12:04:12 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts. I believe youíre right, ideally #2 takeoff rather than #3. My Kalama is 6í and barely fits in the bed of my truck so I donít want anything longer.  That may not leave many options?  Could go narrower and less rocker, but not sure if that would be enough.

So that may lead to a board more for #3...which ends up probably needing the opposite variables. A lot of times I feel I could pump myself onto a wave if I could stand further back when paddling into it. When Iíve tried, seems all I do is sink the tail and itís very hard to keep standing. That makes no sense whatsoever. ;D Maybe all I really need is a shorter board with a decent design.
What I've found is that a lot of what type of takeoff you're going to do depends more on the foil you're riding, more so than the board.

I used to do the old "Ollie" up kind of early takeoff in or just behind the peak when I was on lower aspect ratio (lower speed) wings with a lot of initial lift. Once I started riding higher aspect foils that require more speed to lift, I had to adopt a more of late entry, wait for the skateboard ramp to form in order to push the board over the "pool coping" and into the bowl if you will...to use that to garner enough speed to get the HA wings to lift me for takeoff.

So it doesn't really matter the size of board I use (currently 5'1x27"), as much as it does that I'm able to get deep enough, early enough so that the two maybe three paddle strokes I do take, have me headed down the face picking up speed. Because there's no way I'm able to paddle fast enough even on my larger (5'7x28") board to get the HA wings up to speed to lift them, and trying to "Ollie" them up like the LA wings I used to ride, only causes them to stall right away and produce zero lift after that.

Just my experiences with different wings and takeoffs....OMMV.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 12:07:10 PM by Califoilia »
Me: 6'1"/185...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'7" Kings Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

 


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