Author Topic: Boom to non boom wing comparison  (Read 10158 times)

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2021, 08:09:54 AM »
Are they all just lemmings following the rest of the industry?

Former hard core boomer here, who has softened his position.

Cons of true boom:
1) Can be harsh in strong gusty wind. Hard, direct, violent feedback that can leave you with sore shoulders, wrist, and more.
2) Weight
3) Packing
4) Finger fatigue.
5) Sore front wrist

Pros of handles:
1) Soft compliance for multiple wrist angles. Twisting maneuvers, wing or board.
2) Smaller grip = less finger fatigue.
3) long handles provide similar hand placement freedom of boom.
4) lighter
5) smaller packing
6) gust absorption.

Its less black and white. Handles getting better.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 08:13:07 AM by Dwight (DW) »

FedorBOS

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2021, 09:07:11 AM »
I'm not arguing that handles are worthless, only that there is a very strong case to be made for booms, yet of the major brands Duotone is the only one I see with a true boom wing. I guess the move to long handles by several brands is an effort for middle ground to appease both sides, but those loose some of the flexibility that you sight as an advantage.

Packability 100%, a boom is a pain to deal with and one more thing to buy/transport/break/forget at home.

Weight somewhat, though as we get into longer handles it seems like that might be a minimal delta. A carbon boom is .33kg, and a 4m wing is 2-3+, if we conservatively assume handle material, stitching, fill, connectors to support wing are only 100g then it is a ~10% weight change in the absolute worst case @4M. When you get into bigger wings, where weight matters more, it gets pretty minimal.   

All of the comfort and fatigue considerations (and gust handling) seem to be solvable with a harness, but I guess lots of people don't want to ride with a harness.

Again, not damning handles, but looking at that new Strike CWC I was just blown away by what seems like a major compromise to the potential efficiency of the wing in order to enable handle placement.

Wingingtanuki

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2021, 10:39:47 AM »
Again, not damning handles, but looking at that new Strike CWC I was just blown away by what seems like a major compromise to the potential efficiency of the wing in order to enable handle placement.

IMHO, the strut doesn't follow the contour of the canopy in order to allow for de-power, not to allow for handle placement.

(In the same way a non-cambered WS sail is preferable for wave sailing vs a sail with cams)

As in windsurfing, I imagine in the future there will be "cambered" wings (similar to Cabrinha v2) once wing-foil racing becomes a thing.

Vancouver_foiler

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #33 on: June 10, 2021, 11:48:03 AM »
The handles on the Takuma look very similar to those on the Ensis.

https://www.mackiteboarding.com/takuma-wing-ride-iii/

From what I hear, both companies have the same designer. They are certainly very similar wings, if not the same.

FedorBOS

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #34 on: June 10, 2021, 12:46:42 PM »
The depower consideration is logical. A loose luff would make for a forgiving flag out, though different maker seem to have different approaches to how much of the wing should be directly linked to the strut. It is early days yet, and there are sure to be plenty of flavors of wing for different applications, as we see in windsurfing and kiting.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 12:51:36 PM by FedorBOS »

Beasho

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #35 on: June 10, 2021, 01:42:23 PM »
PONO conversion complete.

36" broken paddle shaft I found floating in the Pacific.  Champagne corked the end.  Bought some hockey tape vs. padding the entire boom.

I will try this out on my 6.4M Slingshot V2 wing. 

Note:  I have a 5.0 Duotone Echo.  My transitions in jibing are flawless, and better when tacking, with the boom where I stumble and search with the handles on the Slingshot.  No comparison for transitions.  The boom is massively superior.  This from someone with 40 sessions.

I have gone out with the Duotone, boom, and flown for 1+ hour without falling in.  No way with the handles.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2021, 01:44:25 PM by Beasho »

PonoBill

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #36 on: June 10, 2021, 07:06:04 PM »
I keep going out without my fake boom just to see if I'm missing something. I tried my new 6M Strike since the handles look so good. YUCK!

The handles weren't bad, I could grab them easily and they aren't floppy, but for transitions, tacks especially, bah. I came in and got my fake boom after 30 minutes of unsatisfying sailing. Obviously, I'm not sticking with it long enough to get used to it, but I don't see the point. The fake boom is more packable than a pump. I made a special one today for my new 6M since it needs a bit more length. 84 grams (less than three ounces) without the harness lines.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Beasho

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2021, 01:48:10 PM »
Flew with the boom today.  It worked GREAT!

12 to 20 riding the M280 foil and this 6.4M Slingshot V2.  Transitions were FANTASTIC.

Easy Riding.  Swing over head and Jibe away.  Really really nice.

I was only out for 30 minutes but had this nice 5+ minute flight goofy foot.  The stress level is WAY lower when jibing.  You can focus on your feet and the hands just go into automatic mode with the boom.  Quick flip overhead.  Wind SE in Green.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 01:53:25 PM by Beasho »

PonoBill

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2021, 08:57:13 PM »
If you make that a little longer so it covers all the handles, and double up on the straps for the front and rear handle so the handle is stretched tightly against the boom, it will be quite a bit stiffer and work even better. Glad to hear you like it. This is a strange phenomenon. Everyone who actually tries one loves it. People who haven't tried one seem to think it won't be useful. You don't really need to cork the shaft or keep the handle. As an open tube with just reversed tape to cover the edges it drains instantly. I used a handle for a while but found it got in the way.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 08:59:04 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Beasho

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2021, 09:43:28 AM »
I left the handle on to preserve length. 

I love when people bash on an idea or piece of hardware they have never tried.  Especially when the supporters have tried both ways as in Ive used handles and Ive used booms.  Booms are better.  One handed flight.  Infinite variability.  Easy harness attachments that dont flop

Next question is the best way to secure to the handles.  Im using the the remnants of harness line attachments but there is probably a simpler mechanism. 

PonoBill

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2021, 10:16:31 PM »
Next question is the best way to secure to the handles.  Im using the the remnants of harness line attachments but there is probably a simpler mechanism.

I use velcro straps made from  2" hook and loop sewn back to back. If you run a strip of 1" self-adhesive velcro along the boom it makes it much easier to attach the straps and ensures the boom won't rotate. I use 4 straps, two for the front and back of the frontmost handle, and two for the rear handle, stretching the handle tight against the boom. If you have more handles in between you can add straps just to keep them open or just ignore them. either way works.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2021, 06:52:38 PM »
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link

PonoBill

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2021, 09:24:51 PM »
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link

That's Alan Cadiz doing the riding. I'd call those Maui Hot Sails style handles since Jef Henderson did them first, but yeah. Cute.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Wingingtanuki

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2021, 08:31:53 AM »
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link

That's Alan Cadiz doing the riding. I'd call those Maui Hot Sails style handles since Jef Henderson did them first, but yeah. Cute.

The most interesting aspect of that video is how much quicker Alan is than anyone else.  I think he may have left a windsurfer or two behind.

PonoBill

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Re: Boom to non boom wing comparison
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2021, 07:10:50 AM »
Now this is looking better. A Duotone prototype with Cabrinha like handles. Hell Yeah.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CQBkJ3LAmny/?utm_medium=copy_link

That's Alan Cadiz doing the riding. I'd call those Maui Hot Sails style handles since Jef Henderson did them first, but yeah. Cute.

The most interesting aspect of that video is how much quicker Alan is than anyone else.  I think he may have left a windsurfer or two behind.

Alan is ridiculously skilled and would be fast on almost anything, but I think his technique would work for anyone. I've been doing the deep knee bend (my version, which probably looks like straight legs to outside observers) upwind thing for a few weeks now, and it results in a much higher speed. I have no idea and not even a half-ass theory about why that is so. Yesterday we had completely goofy conditions in Hood River, I went out with my 6.0 F-one and 1150 foil wing. I generally consider the 1150 to be sort of slow, but with my knees bent as much as I can manage and heeled way over I was hauling ass upwind. I'm fairly certain a good part of my foil wing was waving in the air--the foil sounded like a vacuum cleaner sucking up water.

Downwind was a different story. The 3-strut F-one has a stupid amount of torque, and I was overpowered in the gusts. The swells were big too. So I was on my tiptoes, sideslipping down the swell faces with the wing trying to lift me off the board. I think I found the practical limit for the 6M for myself. I had a couple of high altitude face plants that were not all that much fun.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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