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Author Topic: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews  (Read 42225 times)

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2022, 09:21:00 PM »
"His thoughts in fixed stabs. No shimming allowed."

NO!

You can shim mike's lab fuses. In fact, they are designed to be shimmed. I keep running into people who don't know this, some of whom own his gear lamenting how they can't shim it, lol.

http://www.mikeslab.com/instructions/

Look forward to the interview.

Thatspec

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2022, 11:23:03 PM »
So do those foils come with the tin foil hat or do I have to build my own? Who has time for this nonsense?

From those shimming instructions :o

"Ventilation
Ventilation on the strut can happen for a variety of reasons. Most often ventilation occurs due to impurities that can build up on the leading edge, or scratches that can result from hitting things in the water. Water temperature and sea state also play an important role in the separation of laminar flow on the strut.

It is very important to keep the strut very clean, especially the leading edge. Do not touch it with dirty or greasy hands. You can clean the mast periodically with alcohol or household glass cleaner.

If you have persistent ventilation problems, or some surface defects and leading edge scratches as a result of hitting something in the water, please use the following procedure to bring back the leading edge to original performance:

You should do this only if you feel absolutely confident, otherwise you may risk changing the profile of the leading edge. If in doubt please contact us

1. Examine and fill any scratches or impact pits created from hitting something in the water using two part epoxy. Make sure to use only a tiny amount, just enough to fill, leaving very little to sand afterwards. Sand down the cured epoxy just in the repaired area with 600 grit until it is even. Only do a few strokes locally with 600 grit, as you can easily ruin the symmetry of the leading edge.

2. Start by wet sanding the leading edge with 1000 grit sand paper. Make sure your strokes are 45º alternating to the direction of the water flow.

3. Steadily work your way up to 1500, then 2000 grit. Be sure to change your water often so as not to contaminate the subsequent grit.

4. Rinse and dry off the strut. When dry use a 3M Trizact pad 3000 grit to buff the strut to a satin sheen.

5. Wipe down with alcohol or glass cleaner and you are ready to go."

PonoBill

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #92 on: December 06, 2022, 12:29:25 AM »
Yikes. And do you chant while you're doing all this?
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #93 on: December 06, 2022, 01:55:27 AM »
…People doing 40+ knots and (kite)racing for their livelihood. You don’t have to.

cnski

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2022, 06:21:16 AM »
Looking forward to both of these interviews as well. Thanks Robert!! Also curious about shimming a ML foil. Seems to me that when you shim the fuse you aren't actually changing the AOA of the stabilizer in relation to the front wing (which is the whole purpose of shimming a stabilizer) and all that is accomplished is changing the angle of the ML bottom section (glider as it's called) in relation to the mast.

1) Please ask Stefano if he would be willing to do a Youtube tutorial on sanding a ML foil. Thanks!!
2) Ask Ken if the are working on a larger D-lab for light wind? Like 7.5m.....

Hdip

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2022, 07:49:45 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsN-2T7zMLM&t=1s

That one and the accompanying video on sanding should be similar for filling and sanding a mast. I bought the glazing compound at one time, but never went through with doing it.

jondrums

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2022, 10:11:47 AM »
Sorry, there is no way to shim the angle of the tail with respect to the front wing.  This is the most fundamental form of tuning.  I have spent plenty of time playing with this, and now understand how incredibly important it is to achieve the feel you want.  I'm sure his foils are great, but you won't catch me on a foil that doesn't allow me to mess around with the tail.  Not just shimming, but also changing to different tails.  I  honestly can't believe racers put up with this when tiny details can be the difference between winning and losing.  I would love to hear Mike's take on this.  I believe it makes great sense for a mass market product to keep things simple.  But high end racing is anything but mass market and simple.

Califoilia

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2022, 12:46:41 PM »
Sorry, there is no way to shim the angle of the tail with respect to the front wing.  This is the most fundamental form of tuning.  I have spent plenty of time playing with this, and now understand how incredibly important it is to achieve the feel you want.  I'm sure his foils are great, but you won't catch me on a foil that doesn't allow me to mess around with the tail.  Not just shimming, but also changing to different tails.  I  honestly can't believe racers put up with this when tiny details can be the difference between winning and losing.  I would love to hear Mike's take on this.  I believe it makes great sense for a mass market product to keep things simple.  But high end racing is anything but mass market and simple.
Yep, and same thing with fuse lengths. It's amazing how noticeable the differences with not only using various stab sizes with the same front wing, but then also how noticeably different the performance is changed using the same stab(s), but with different length fuses. Top that all off with a shim under either the front or back stab screw, and you've got a whole other feel to customize your ride depending the the size of yourself, your board, your style, your wave of the day, and so on.

Hell, we were even shimming the rear screw of a prototype front wing while testing a couple years ago, that made iftgo from "blah" to "yeehaw!". A far cry from when I was pounding on a front and rear wing onto a fuse with a mallet, and then sticking the whole thing into a Tuttle box that I hoped was in the correct spot for the setup, and how I wanted it to ride.  :o ;D

PS. Great interview with Jason and Pono, Robert. Both of those guys (and their 3rd amigo Chad) are a hoot to hang out with....the laughter never stops! Great crew for sure.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 12:49:42 PM by Califoilia »
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

bigmtn

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2022, 09:17:28 PM »
Please ask KW why the leading edge handle on the unit's is so wimpy. Even the new "beefed up" version is wimpy, soft, and flexy. Makes controlling the wing while riding waves or downwinding way way harder. Amazing wings otherwise, but what were/are they thinking with that luff handle?

Admin

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2022, 12:51:59 AM »
So do those foils come with the tin foil hat or do I have to build my own? Who has time for this nonsense?

From those shimming instructions :o

"Ventilation
Ventilation on the strut can happen for a variety of reasons. Most often ventilation occurs due to impurities that can build up on the leading edge, or scratches that can result from hitting things in the water. Water temperature and sea state also play an important role in the separation of laminar flow on the strut.

It is very important to keep the strut very clean, especially the leading edge. Do not touch it with dirty or greasy hands. You can clean the mast periodically with alcohol or household glass cleaner.

If you have persistent ventilation problems, or some surface defects and leading edge scratches as a result of hitting something in the water, please use the following procedure to bring back the leading edge to original performance:

You should do this only if you feel absolutely confident, otherwise you may risk changing the profile of the leading edge. If in doubt please contact us

1. Examine and fill any scratches or impact pits created from hitting something in the water using two part epoxy. Make sure to use only a tiny amount, just enough to fill, leaving very little to sand afterwards. Sand down the cured epoxy just in the repaired area with 600 grit until it is even. Only do a few strokes locally with 600 grit, as you can easily ruin the symmetry of the leading edge.

2. Start by wet sanding the leading edge with 1000 grit sand paper. Make sure your strokes are 45º alternating to the direction of the water flow.

3. Steadily work your way up to 1500, then 2000 grit. Be sure to change your water often so as not to contaminate the subsequent grit.

4. Rinse and dry off the strut. When dry use a 3M Trizact pad 3000 grit to buff the strut to a satin sheen.

5. Wipe down with alcohol or glass cleaner and you are ready to go."

It is great to see a like minded fellow.  This seems like a reasonable after-sesh cleanup routine but deep cleaning instructions should be provided as well. 

Now on the other hand we have brands that use thick cosmetic printing on foils and masts that you can catch a fingernail on.  That is absurd.

I get the no adjustment thing for this application.  Current adjustable tails offer great tune-ability but you can vary incidence by over a degree depending on screw position just due to slop (Mike is looking for accuracy down to 1/10 of a degree). It is equally easy to have the rear wing fastened and not straight.  It usually takes me 2-3 times to get it lined up well and even then it can slip.  This could be greatly improved by ridging and slotting. 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 01:31:57 AM by Admin »

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2022, 12:51:37 PM »
Guys you are straight up wrong about ML shimming.

You can change the angle of the tail and not change the front angle. I have done so and measured it and tuned it. Like I said this is the design. Racers use this all the time. I even linked to it. I know it’s hard to comprehend, I was shocked too when other people who raced them told me about it.

The fuse has three 1/4”x20 bolts connecting it to the mast. Behind that is a smaller bolt. You shim under that bolt and torque it all up. This FLEXES the fuse between the rearmost large bolt and the small bolt you have placed a shim under. This changes the angle of the tail wing relative to the front wing (front wing and front 4/5ths of the fuse do not move).

I have changed the relative angle of the front wing/ tail wing on one mast from 2.5 degrees to 1.7, for example (which is a ton). This did not change the angle of the front wing.

If you want more info PM me or email mike or stephano.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2022, 01:15:18 PM by JohnnyTsunami »

cnski

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2022, 02:17:08 PM »
That's cool. I love being wrong and shouldn't believe everything I think. I wanna hear more.

Admin

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2022, 03:24:09 PM »
Guys you are straight up wrong about ML shimming.

You can change the angle of the tail and not change the front angle. I have done so and measured it and tuned it. Like I said this is the design. Racers use this all the time. I even linked to it. I know it’s hard to comprehend, I was shocked too when other people who raced them told me about it.

The fuse has three 1/4”x20 bolts connecting it to the mast. Behind that is a smaller bolt. You shim under that bolt and torque it all up. This FLEXES the fuse between the rearmost large bolt and the small bolt you have placed a shim under. This changes the angle of the tail wing relative to the front wing (front wing and front 4/5ths of the fuse do not move).

I have changed the relative angle of the front wing/ tail wing on one mast from 2.5 degrees to 1.7, for example (which is a ton). This did not change the angle of the front wing.

If you want more info PM me or email mike or stephano.

That sounds very cool.  Do you have an image?

JohnnyTsunami

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2022, 06:12:06 PM »
I cut some .01" polyester shim stock to a shape. I settled on 3 shims for this foil. You can see how the fuse is bent in the rear with the shims installed. I'm sure others just use round shapes/washers. This foil is a funky old proptype so it needs shims to work. I haven't shimmed any new ML stuff made for winging yet. I know some extremely fast wingers who never shim ML stuff, others shim and find less lift at high speeds is better with certain front/rear wing combinations. Anyway it's a whole topic of discussion...

I found for this old B3 fuse that with .03" / 1mm of shims the angle relative to the front wing went from 2.5 to 2.0 degrees. Over shimming is bad for the mast. It looks like the whole thing is tilted but it isn't.  ;)

I measure the angle using the delta method, but this isn't necessary for anyone to do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE

Anyway, sorry to get this thread off track.

Thatspec

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Re: Blue Planet Show- Wing Foil interviews
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2022, 11:12:51 PM »
OK, but now you've created a 1mm gap between mast and fuse junction just forward of the shim (won't mention the hydrodynamic drag). Those carefully constructed parts designed to fit together like a glove now... don't. There might be a little flex there, you measured it but a gap is inevitable introducing all kinds of flex into that joint and eventually breaking the bolts. Just overall a bad design and the cheapest way to solve the problem. All this for $3.5K ::)

We're all interested in becoming as good at this sport as JH and KA who interestingly enough both use ML foils. Thing is, either of these guys could jump on my setup and make it look exactly the same as their ML. The foil is capable, I am not. Throwing double the money at this will not solve my issues. Did I mention the thing will already be obsolete when it arrives a year after you order it?

Folks are welcome to put their money(and sand their foils) anywhere(way) they like, thanks for making it even more clear that this system is not for me. Enjoy whatever it is you ride :)


 


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