Author Topic: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $  (Read 1811 times)

808sup

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2021, 07:36:18 PM »


And yes, SanO, technique and ability trumps setup. 70 pound kids with their energy and agility can take something totally unsuited, slam it together with no regard to AOA or any finer point, and pump their way off to the horizon. Geezers who weigh three times what they do with the agility of a hippo need all the help they can get.


Hippos are quite agile once they are in the water!   ;)
 http://youtu.be/cYQ0m6DV1uY

surfcowboy

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2021, 07:44:19 PM »
Googled. Read the first section for a mind blowing wave. The motion of waves is shown later by the rubber duck.

https://topex.ucsd.edu/ps/trujillo_waves.pdf

PonoBill

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2021, 10:12:52 PM »
That's a pretty cool link--the PDF has about everything a surfer should know about waves in one place. Not much on refraction, or how the wave energy gets transferred to a surfer, but otherwise complete.

I also don't argue with folks anymore about what happens when you ride a wave. Thinking this is a gravity sport where you accelerate by sliding down the wave requires a mindset I don't expect to alter. I'd think the first time you see someone accelerate to 20+ mph while going backward up the face of Peahi would kill that notion, and the idea of foiling for a mile because you slid down a three-foot wave should seal the deal. But no.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dontsink

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2021, 11:41:35 PM »


I also don't argue with folks anymore about what happens when you ride a wave. Thinking this is a gravity sport where you accelerate by sliding down the wave requires a mindset I don't expect to alter. I'd think the first time you see someone accelerate to 20+ mph while going backward up the face of Peahi would kill that notion, and the idea of foiling for a mile because you slid down a three-foot wave should seal the deal. But no.

Simplified explanations sometimes take a very strong hold in people's minds, digging deeper often involves hard work and not so satisfying and clear cut conclusions.

How foils really create lift is a good example.
The widespread "Sesame Street" explanation of fluid particles separating at Leading edge and happily reuniting at the Trailing edge is simple,endearing and ... false.
But digging deeper is kind of frustrating because there is no complete explanation,  we can design wonderful lift creating surfaces for just about any application but nobody really understands fully how they work.
I have been flying airplanes for a living since '98 and when i say i don't really know how they manage to stay aloft i get funny looks, if i say nobody really knows people get offended  ,fellow pilots the most :)

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/no-one-can-explain-why-planes-stay-in-the-air/

PonoBill

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2021, 07:42:30 AM »
It is indeed frustrating that the deeper you look the less absolute proof gets. Bayesian logic provides a good approach to sorting out some of those kinds of issues, though generally if you go deep enough the process falls apart and you can't find enough difference in the likely credence of conflicting data.

I've never really understood why the unlikely rejoining of air particles disproves the prevailing Bernoulli theory. The existence of turbulence and drag related to lift would seem to both demonstrate that they don't and provide a more credible explanation. All that has to happen is for the air molecules going over the top of the wing to go faster than those going over the bottom. As for what makes them go faster, I'm comfortable with considering it to be just statistical, like Boltzman's explanation of entropy. He wound up killing himself because the scientists of the day considered his explanation to be absurd, but I'm not wedded to the idea at that level. Either foil section or AOA can deliver that result. I'm also reasonably certain that Newton has a place in the full explanation, but probably not a big one. Purely F=Ma explanations work as well for wings completely without foil shape as for the ones that actually work.

Unfortunately, more complete theories result in calculations so complex that they can't be explained and theories so ugly they are hard to swallow. Considering that the universe is Newtonian, made of particles with ordinary measurable characteristics like position and momentum falls apart when we look deeper and discover that everything is actually waves and measuring their characteristics changes them profoundly, making them appear to be particles. A nice moment for surfers but big trouble for physicists. The measurement problem in Physics leads to extremely uncomfortable theories like "many worlds" and "hidden variables" which are extraordinarily difficult to apply a logical credence to. 

I should make a T shirt with a picture of a surfer on it, and "Everything Is Waves" as the caption, with Schrodinger's equation under it. Could be a big market for that, I might sell as many as four.

Just as with aerodynamics, the most useful elements of quantum mechanics use a recipe approach, applying the calculations without understanding the foundation. Not because the practitioners are too stupid, but because the formulas don't translate into simple explanations, and to whatever degree they do, the results are not clear. Saying aerodynamic lift is either Bernoulli or Newtonian is overly simplified and is falsifiable. The useful recipes are primarily Bernoulli-based but come apart a bit in the detail. So yup, "nobody knows" is a reasonable thing to say, but that isn't mysterious. Just too fucking complicated.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 08:22:21 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

jondrums

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2021, 11:14:17 AM »
I love this!  thanks for the PDF link by the way, I've saved that for future reference.

Back the point brought up by SanO - I'll say that I haven't noticed a difference between the standing deck angle during flight with several different boards for which I KNOW there is a difference in the angle between the foil and the deck.  However, I have noticed the difference during wave take-off.  I know you don't care about wave count or how it feels to catch the wave - but I do!  I'm pretty sure that for me, once I'm up in the air - the board basically doesn't matter besides the weight.  For me that includes the precise angle of the deck to the foil - I don't think it effects my riding experience.

I've noticed the biggest differences between boards is apparent at the initial wave take-off and acceleration.  It manifests in where my weight needs to be to keep things in control.

Best: my foot position and weight balance fore-aft matches for all three important phases - maneuvering for take-off, paddling for take-off, and flying.

Realistic: my foot position and/or weight balance fore-aft changes through these three phases.  In reality, I get to know the board and the foil characteristics as well as various types of wave takeoffs and manage this through feel.  But there are a ton of combinations to manage and I'd rather not take the first half hour of every sesson blowing waves until I get the right feel.

PS. from having spent just a few days at SanO - you guys down there are totally spoiled.  That's about the most user friendly wave I've ever encountered (I rode it both overhead and piddly small).  For those of us in more challenging waves, takeoff is huge
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 11:17:56 AM by jondrums »

Dontsink

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2021, 03:17:35 PM »
I love this!  thanks for the PDF link by the way, I've saved that for future reference.

Back the point brought up by SanO - I'll say that I haven't noticed a difference between the standing deck angle during flight with several different boards for which I KNOW there is a difference in the angle between the foil and the deck.  However, I have noticed the difference during wave take-off.  I know you don't care about wave count or how it feels to catch the wave - but I do!  I'm pretty sure that for me, once I'm up in the air - the board basically doesn't matter besides the weight.  For me that includes the precise angle of the deck to the foil - I don't think it effects my riding experience.

I've noticed the biggest differences between boards is apparent at the initial wave take-off and acceleration.  It manifests in where my weight needs to be to keep things in control.

Best: my foot position and weight balance fore-aft matches for all three important phases - maneuvering for take-off, paddling for take-off, and flying.

Realistic: my foot position and/or weight balance fore-aft changes through these three phases.  In reality, I get to know the board and the foil characteristics as well as various types of wave takeoffs and manage this through feel.  But there are a ton of combinations to manage and I'd rather not take the first half hour of every sesson blowing waves until I get the right feel.

PS. from having spent just a few days at SanO - you guys down there are totally spoiled.  That's about the most user friendly wave I've ever encountered (I rode it both overhead and piddly small).  For those of us in more challenging waves, takeoff is huge

I agree with this, a one degree mast shim makes a big difference in how the board behaves on
take off but for me it is negligible once in flight.

And the take off is THE maneuver that makes or breaks my sessions,what comes after is the icing on the cake :)

Califoilia

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2021, 04:17:45 PM »
Back the point brought up by SanO - I'll say that I haven't noticed a difference between the standing deck angle during flight with several different boards for which I KNOW there is a difference in the angle between the foil and the deck.  However, I have noticed the difference during wave take-off.  I know you don't care about wave count or how it feels to catch the wave - but I do!  I'm pretty sure that for me, once I'm up in the air - the board basically doesn't matter besides the weight.  For me that includes the precise angle of the deck to the foil - I don't think it effects my riding experience.
It's an easy feel for me. In the board I had to shim, I felt like I was foiling downhill, with the lower than the tail. Once I threw the shim in the front of the baseplate, I felt it level again, and much easier to control going into, through, and out of the turns. I also breached less with the shim in that board; in that when I was flying "level" on the board, the wing was actually pointed 1o underneath it, and my lame brain kept trying to ride it level, as the wing was heading for the surface. :-[

Quote
PS. from having spent just a few days at SanO - you guys down there are totally spoiled.  That's about the most user friendly wave I've ever encountered (I rode it both overhead and piddly small).  For those of us in more challenging waves, takeoff is huge.
Yes, we're very fortunate, and it's also why my wife can't understand why I don't want to go on vacation anywhere else. She seems to understand when I tell her, "Hell sweetie, people from all over plan their vacations to come get the great surf in our own backyard...why would I ever want or need to go somewhere else?" :D
Me: 6'1"/185...5'7" Kings Foil Board...Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit.

all~wet

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Re: Mast Plate Shimming,huge effect for little $
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2021, 06:33:10 PM »
I should make a T shirt with a picture of a surfer on it, and "Everything Is Waves" as the caption, with Schrodinger's equation under it. Could be a big market for that, I might sell as many as four.


Put me down for 1.

 


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