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Author Topic: Which futures fins for a 10"6 x 29 Gerry Lopez Surf Sup & quads or thruster?  (Read 2951 times)

Badger

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Badger - got a question fins. Attached is a pic from the video you posted. Do you mean you like the fins on the right side or the black/grey ones on the left? Those are quite pretty - what model are they? Not the AM2, correct? I see the point - in weak windsurf it is good to have fins with big bases and lots of areas.  Also, at futures they they also have a line of fins in "BlackStix" that give you speed in weak great lakes surf, do you like fins in BlackStix too in this situation?

I don't know what you are asking. They look like typical shortboard fins. The white fins have a fairly long base to provide drive. The other fins seem to have more rake which will draw out the turns.

Fin shapes explained here. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/ef/94/e4ef94588074d6c538aacd849bde80ee.jpg

You can learn more by Googling surfboard fin guide.


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Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Hypr Gun  10'6 X 28"  148L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 63yo

marvinhecht

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The pic is from the Ben Casey video you linked too, where you were saying the fins on his board were similar to the AM2 fins. Did you mean the fins on the left or right board are similar to the AM2?
10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darlin Surftech SUP
GL1 and GL2 quads
Hoe Nalu Carbon Paddle (Surfing)
QuickBlade 86 Trifeca Carbon Paddle (Flatwater)

Badger

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The pic is from the Ben Casey video you linked too, where you were saying the fins on his board were similar to the AM2 fins. Did you mean the fins on the left or right board are similar to the AM2?

I was talking about the first video. I was using it as an example to show that he was using shortboard style fins in his longboard. Ben rides his longboard as if it were a shortboard. Most longboarders use a single fin or a 2+1 set up. It depends on your style of riding.

I don't know much about the AM2's except that they look like a good all-around fin set. The FCS Performer fins I had in my Tom Carroll Outer Reef 10'6 were similar and they surfed great on that board. I ended up selling the Outer Reef because it was too wide and had too much volume.

Here it is here.  https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,34703.msg400710.html#msg400710


« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 07:24:02 PM by Badger »
Jimmy Lewis Super Frank  7'6 X 31"  115L
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Hypr Gun  10'6 X 28"  148L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 63yo

marvinhecht

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Badger,

Hey in that thread you mentioned that the trick to turning big boards is to get on the tail- good info, I will work on that. I am surprised you bought such a big Tom Carroll board (10"6 x 33" wide) at 175 lbs?  A friend of mine who also surfs the local windswell/ great lakes and is 5"9 and 175 lbs - he has 7 different SUPS and I asked him which is the most fun of all, and he it is an 8"4 Tom Caroll Loose Leaf. I think your purpose was different - you were buying a board for big days and to go out far - I get that. Heck for me I like the laird 12" x 34 for that purpose!

My plan is to keep my current board and play with the fins- good to know that your Tom Caroll board liked a thruster setup the best- I'm trying a thruster next on my board - never have before!

You and the others here know so much about fins etc but for anyone reading this thread, here are some additional really high-quality videos with good info about fins:

Surfboard Fins Guide Part 1 - Advantages/Disadvantages of various configs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf1fgoUcKkA&ab_channel=GOSURF

Surfboard Fins Guide Part 2 - fin attributes & construction
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5eVI2k3Tms&ab_channel=GOSURF

Fin Systems: Futures vs FCS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpWJztqE-dU&ab_channel=GOSURF

Informative and Funny - he says inside flat foils cause "Excitement"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtNsOF2dE0E&t=205s&ab_channel=SurfMoustache

« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 09:04:52 AM by marvinhecht »
10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darlin Surftech SUP
GL1 and GL2 quads
Hoe Nalu Carbon Paddle (Surfing)
QuickBlade 86 Trifeca Carbon Paddle (Flatwater)

marvinhecht

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10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darlin Surftech SUP
GL1 and GL2 quads
Hoe Nalu Carbon Paddle (Surfing)
QuickBlade 86 Trifeca Carbon Paddle (Flatwater)

sflinux

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For a 180 pivot, have you tried the rainbow stroke?  You paddle from the tail to the nose on the heel side of the board (like a rainbow, props to Conner Baxter), then from the nose to the tail on the toe side of the board (like a rainbow).  You should be able to get 90-180 degrees in effectively two strokes.
Fins are expensive.  Try option B.  I would experiment with low cost fins until you dial in what setup you like.   When experimenting, I switch it up every session, and keep notes in a fin diary.  It is definitely worth experimenting with fins, as you can transform a dog to a magic board.  No affiliation, but dorsalfins sells some low cost center fins for size experimentation.  Your GL's look pretty chewed up, those would hum for me while kitesurfing.  How much do you weigh?  Perhaps the GLs are too big for your weight. 
When I first started riding my longboards I liked my controller quad set (appropriate for my weight) as the board would spin 180 easier than a big 2+1.  On at least one board, I have since changed my preference and like a smaller 2+1 (6"-7").  It doesn't spin 180 as easy, but I like how it turns better.  On a 9' & 12' board, I found I have a lot of fun with a 8.5" single fin.  A single fin will really help you get a feel for the rail line of how a board likes to turn.  My buddy said he caught the ride of his life on a 11' single fin.  But if you like more top to bottom surfing, a 2+1 will have more drive and a tighter arc.   I've found that I prefer a single or 2+1 (over thrusters and quads) in messy conditions, I have more drive when I paddle with a 2+1 or single fin as it seems like I can paddle faster and cover a larger distance.
For a single fin, I've heard the rule of thumb is 1" per foot of board.  But I have found that with a SUP, you can go smaller.  For a single fin, I would go up to a 9".   SUPs are wider, have more swing weight, and you have the leverage of the paddle.  I found this video really insightful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0UihzchsfQ
With a center fin, the more forward towards the nose, the looser the turns will be (as you are effectively making the fin area near the rail smaller as explained in the video above).  For a 2+1, I would try to keep the center fin between 6"-7".  To enhance turning, you could try a cutaway fin.  For 2+1 front fins, you want to keep the surface area small at 3.25", 3.7", no bigger than 4.5".  I have a 12' that turns surprisingly fast with 4.25" sides and a 7" fin.  The center fin size is a balance of pivot versus drive as the center fin goes smaller to bigger. 
When you look to replace/supplement your longboard, I would look at short wide tail boards that have quick acceleration.  Less swing weight for the 180 pivot, and less real estate to travel to get on the tail.
Have fun.
Quiver Shaped by: Joe Blair, Blane Chambers, Kirk McGinty, and Bob Pearson.
Me: 195#, 6'2"

marvinhecht

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Hey sflinux,

Thanks! I have a friend with a Naish Maliko who likes to invite me to flatwater paddling with him, and he recently was trying out Connor Baxter's unique techniques - both stroke/stance and turns, and wants to show me. I have been resisting going out because I find flatwater paddling boring (my board glides OK but is not "fun" to flatwater paddle) - but sounds like I need to be open-minded and learn! Once in a while I do like to practice buoy turns but it's the old-fashioned lean back and pop-the-nose type. Maybe I can get good enough at both turning types to do them in the surf, at least some of the time!

Yep I am going to start experiment like crazy with fins, starting with what I own. I have already installed a thruster set for the next session. You can see in the pic that my GL1 center is in mint condition, never been in the water :)

After that I am going to take the T1 twins and stick them on in the side position (even though the fin box is not in the right position) - just to see how "loose" and "skatey" I can get that back end going. It sounds like it will be like drifting around a corner in a rear-wheel drive car which is always fun.

On fins, ask me how I know they are expensive. I lost a $100 beautiful new fiberglass single fin in the ocean. That was an expensive lesson learning that you do NOT just grab a non-stainless steel screw from your toolbox to screw in a center fin that will be going into the ocean, doooohhh! But in Hawaii I had various beater boards and I kept 2 center fins: A white & blue Surf Designs Manta 9" GT shown below- is that what you mean by a cutout fin? In another thread someone said to ditch it. I think that fin has never done much for me. It's too thin with not much area - I think that's why my neighbor in Honolulu gave it to me for free :)

Then I have a 9.5" Hobie "wood panel" thick center fin also shown. I can't quite get that into my center fin box, not sure why. Is it kosher to shave a bit of the base off at the front or back (or both) - just enough so I can get it in? The base is extremely hard I may have to ask a friend with power tools. The next thing to try would be to pick up a center fin about 7.5" (and maybe use my current 5.10 GL2 front quads as sidebites (or buy the 4.73 AM2's or 4.65 "AM Comps" per above).

I don't think I am in to "top to bottom" surfing, I normally like nice slow rollers and nose-riding type wave's (even though I can't nose-ride), and wide turns - Waikiki is where I learned -- except now, locally when the waves are only 2-3 feet high and come every 2-3 seconds, I get a little stressed - kind of like Tom Hanks in the movie Greyhound trying to crank around a large battleship ASAP before a Torpedo arrives! Honestly it's not so bad lately, I am WAY more calm, and I find my balance is good enough I don't just roll over like a hot dog on a rotisserie even if I have to let a wave pass below me before catching the next one...

Hey I really like that guy from New Zealand too. He even gave me some tips when I commented on his other video linked above! He was also suggesting a number of things but particularly trying some smaller rear quads. I am on the heavy side  195-200 lbs however I did ride a set of Futures V2F4 quads on my board for one session--Surftech said it would loosen it up, I just can't remember how they felt! I  just found out that the trailers on that set are in fact the smallest QD2 3.75 with an 80/20 foil. SHRED SHOW above thought the QD2 4.0 flat foiled techflex fins really helped turning. I can actually buy a 5-fin set of V2F4 fins right now for $99 in Honeycomb so the last part of my plan is to buy that set - or - JUST get the QD2's, maybe even in Blackstix for weaker surf. I don't know how critical a flat foil in the trailer fins is - but I do notice my GL2 rears have a flat foil and the GL1s don't.

Anyway, I will keep you'all posted, as usual this is great stuff, very helpful! Marv
« Last Edit: November 25, 2020, 05:18:17 PM by marvinhecht »
10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darlin Surftech SUP
GL1 and GL2 quads
Hoe Nalu Carbon Paddle (Surfing)
QuickBlade 86 Trifeca Carbon Paddle (Flatwater)

marvinhecht

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Hey guys I have good news: Futuresfins.com can replace my rear left GL2 so I'll be able to run all GL2s again.

Found another option for Fins: Kai Lenny has been busy, this "zebra-stripped" MFC fins got a good review.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqqsP3LV47A

I didn't realize Infinity SUP makes such cool short-board type surf sups, I want one! This guy Anthony Maltese is killing it! In another video he shows off a prototype "Stub Nose" board meant for small surf, now I want it!!

Also, on Form, I notice that as soon as he gets on the wave his back foot is ALWAYS on the stomp pad  / VERY REAR of the board, almost like it is GLUED or nailed down. He NEVER takes his rear foot off - even though his knee will bend forward and back. I think this is what I need to practice, and/or get an Indo board...


10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darlin Surftech SUP
GL1 and GL2 quads
Hoe Nalu Carbon Paddle (Surfing)
QuickBlade 86 Trifeca Carbon Paddle (Flatwater)

marvinhecht

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Hey guys, I got a chance to go out yesterday and compare a thruster vs quad setup. I learned that a thruster is not for me, at least not in the weak surf I have access to (e.g. 2-6 ft weak crumbly waves).  I could pivot a *slightly* but more but after catching the wave initially,  I would slow down and stall, and the wave would pass me by. It was like my center fin was acting like a hook on the bottom of figher jets landing on an aircraft carrier in the movie Top Gun. I quickly went back and put on my quads, and on the same surf I had just enough speed to keep gliding down the wave, it felt like greased butter, especially if I angled down left or right.

I can see how someone in powerful medium or heavy surf may want this feeling of being held or slowed down, and/or if they are doing lots of top to bottom surfing and airs.

With the thruster, I also missed the left/right "tippiness" I felt on my board. Like when you step on the board for the first time it's a bit like a teeter taughter, kind of tippy horizontally. I think that's a Gerry Lopez design things, I think the marketing says "Gerry assumes people have their balance skills in order". Anyway I do lots of yoga and I am totally used to this board and have come to like this feature. I think it's designed that way so you can easily throw a rail into a wave on your side, and/or initiating a turn. Maybe it's the V-contour on the bottom that helps it quickly get on an angle.

In terms of turning onto a wave, I thought I had this massive problem, but it is not a big deal once I started doing pivot / buoy turns. I was able to do it since the surf was weak. Or I just kind of put left foot back, stayed low, and leaned a bit in the direction I wanted to turn.
I also did a lot of walking the board and trimming yesterday - I was watching youtube videos and I understand on longboards you can't always have your foot on the back (say when trimming or needing to accelerate) because the board is so long, but on shortboard style SUPS you can, because the board is shorter.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2020, 08:04:40 AM by marvinhecht »
10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darlin Surftech SUP
GL1 and GL2 quads
Hoe Nalu Carbon Paddle (Surfing)
QuickBlade 86 Trifeca Carbon Paddle (Flatwater)

Badger

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Hey guys, I got a chance to go out yesterday and compare a thruster vs quad setup. I learned that a thruster is not for me, at least not in the weak surf I have access to (e.g. 2-6 ft weak crumbly waves).  I could pivot a *slightly* but more but after catching the wave initially,  I would slow down and stall, and the wave would pass me by. It was like my center fin was acting like a hook on the bottom of figher jets landing on an aircraft carrier in the movie Top Gun. I quickly went back and put on my quads, and on the same surf I had just enough speed to keep gliding down the wave, it felt like greased butter, especially if I angled down left or right.

I can see how someone in powerful medium or heavy surf may want this feeling of being held or slowed down, and/or if they are doing lots of top to bottom surfing and airs.

Quads have more down the line speed which is what you want for mushy waves.

Thrusters are for getting vertical on the wave face. To get the most out of a thruster set up, the board needs to be in a constant state of turning.

One way to get speed out of a thruster on a slow wave is by pumping the board through a series of quick left, right, left, right turns. Not easy to do on a longboard style SUP and it's physically more work.

Quads can cruise the wave more efficiently than a thruster and do long powerful turns at higher speeds. To use an analogy, you could say that thruster is for skiing moguls and quad is more like slalom.
Jimmy Lewis Super Frank  7'6 X 31"  115L
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Hypr Gun  10'6 X 28"  148L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 63yo

marvinhecht

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Thanks again badger. I am a very detail-oriented person, I even taught statistics published research. For some reason, or maybe it was "surfer brain", from the start I just heard that quads were "better" or for "high performance" - and I took it as gospel. I am embarrassed to say I even bought futures quad finboxes and converted a a large long, large, fat, wide, surf sup  with huge rounded rails and 2+1 inserts to quads - this was my "Frankenboard." I remember telling Robert of Blue Planet and he was saying yeah, that's nice but it may not improve the board :) Hindsight is 20/20.

In the meantime I'm going to dial in my quads. I finally reached futures fins and they are replacing my left rear GL2, and I'm ordering a V2F4 set and going smaller too. The smaller fins may not work in windswell ( a local surf shop suggest to not go lower than 4.15 on the rears) - but I'll have the fins for anywhere I travel.

Also reading up on mfchawaii.com fins, seems like they make fins with larger rears for big surf, and now they have a set of quads meant for normal surf also with larger rears, wondering what they have discovered.
10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darlin Surftech SUP
GL1 and GL2 quads
Hoe Nalu Carbon Paddle (Surfing)
QuickBlade 86 Trifeca Carbon Paddle (Flatwater)

Badger

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I've been into quads ever since SUP companies started offering five fin boxes. I saw the advantage immediately when I suddenly had the speed to outrun waves.

Quads also seem to better suit my style of riding.
Jimmy Lewis Super Frank  7'6 X 31"  115L
Sunova Flow  8'10 X 31"  119L
Hypr Gun  10'6 X 28"  148L
Me - 6'0" - 175lbs - 63yo

Beasho

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I did a whole bunch of fin testing a few years ago.  Before I switched to foiling 100% of the time.

My favorite board of all time was a 10' x 28" Jeff Clark quad.  I ended up loving the quad set up despite having 5 fin boxes.  I tested symmetrical fins, put in Larry's Pro Boxes so I could change out the cant and even reverse the fins if necessary.  The most radical thing I did was to put all 4 fins with the FLAT side to the same side of the board.  I went out in 8 to 10 foot surf and the board went straight at a 15 degree angle and I could NOT rail it up against the flat side of the fins.  Essentially all fins were lifting in the same direction.  There was so much lift, torque, from the fins my weight could not impart any roll on the board.  Moral was LOTS OF LIFT and LIFT = DRAG.   Mmmmmm.

Long story short after measuring speeds with a TRACE and trying to get down to individual rides with specific fins:

1) I like the quad configuration best
2) Bigger waves are faster.  You could be riding the hood of a Volkswagen and go the same speed as a surfboard if you managed to catch the wave together.  If you want to go 30 mph then get on a 20 foot wave. 
3) The bigger the waves the smaller the fins.  Lift and drag increase as the square of the speed.  When you double the speed you quadruple lift and drag if you don't use smaller fins.  Foiling has the same problem just more acute. 

« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 05:44:54 PM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Here was a great video that showcases how the outer fins work on a barreling wave. 

Essentially the upper fin is engaged and lifting using the flat inside edge.  The outer, downwave, fin can be fully deprecated doing nothing but spraying water and air.  The fins have opposing lifting faces to ensure that at least one fin is NOT stalled in almost any board orientation. 

The faster you go the less chance of stall so you can rely on asymmetrical and smaller fins.  Big fins are SUPER draggy but keep you from stalling at slow speed and in mushy conditions.  Similarly cambered fins (Flat on one side) can handle broader range of angle of attack without stall but also impart higher drag.  Stall being defined as tail slide or spin out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3z01EF80RE&feature=emb_logo 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 05:56:04 PM by Beasho »

sflinux

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With regards to getting a fin to fit in the box, it is ok to shape a fin to fit in the box.  I wouldn't do the opposite and shape a box so that a fin could fit.  I have some fins that are too small and I have to add reflective duct tape to a fin to fill in the gap in the box so that a fin is not loose in the box.
For cutaway, if you take away area from the base of the fin, you remove resistance from turning, making it feel like a smaller fin, but still having the benefit of its size where you can feel the drive while paddling (versus a smaller fin).  These are typically used in a 2+1 setup.
https://futuresfins.com/products/cutaway-7-0
You may find this video interesting.  He talks about quads versus thruster and the ideal lines you would draw with each.  (If you haven't listened to the paddlewoo podcast, I highly recommend them.  The Conner Baxter rainbow stroke was mentioned in Conner's interview.)

With regards to thruster, I've had the same experience as you.  I still think it would be worth trying a single fin, as they can have less drag than a thruster.  The bigger the single fin, the more drag you will feel (nose pitching up).
With regards to buying a left versus right fin, make sure you you are getting the one you want.  I believe the "left" fin is the one on the "left" side when the board is in the water from the bird eye's view of the board.
For Quad fins, I initially played with: Controller Quads, PSH (Pancho Sullivan front/Controller Rear), and the Stretch Quads.  The Controllers act kind of like a twinfin, but with additional hold, and are appropriate for our weight.  The PSH fins felt a little stiff for my taste.  The Stretch are more of a medium fin, I've found that I like the extra stickiness of a nubster fin in the center box for our weight.  The Stretch fins are speed generating fins.  Since then, I have played with whatever fin combos I have.  You can go small for the rear quad, you just lose drive, where the tail can drift.  I find that I like larger quads as the waves get steeper or bigger.
I feel the same with regards to flatwater paddling.  I encourage you to try a different fin setup every time you go out: (Single, twinfin (quad front only), quad rear only, full quad, thruster, no fins).  Worthwhile to practive paddling the board backwards too, if you want to work on your hellicopter game.   I've found that I learn more, the worse the conditions are (windy & choppy) [wear a leash in these conditions].  It is fun to find a rhythm where you can paddle solely on one side and go straight.  Try to feel the board surf as it glides during a stroke.  A 20-30 min flat water paddle session can be informative.  Long paddles can point out flaws in your technique.  It was my flat water paddle sessions that I learned how to improve my footwork and paddle technique which had dramatic results in the surf.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 11:13:38 AM by sflinux »
Quiver Shaped by: Joe Blair, Blane Chambers, Kirk McGinty, and Bob Pearson.
Me: 195#, 6'2"

 


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