What is a 2017 Naish Mad Dog Bare Bones 8"1 x 29 SUP worth?

[marvinhecht]

Hi,

I am looking for SUP that is smaller than my 10"6 x 29" Gerry Lopez Big Darling, so I can advance my SUP surfing and turn quicker in windswell on the Great Lakes. I am 5"9 and 195 lbs and dieting to get to 185 lbs.

I have a chance to buy a brand new, never used, never-touched-the-water 2017 Naish Mad Dog SUP in "Bare Bones" configuration. It is 8"1 x 29 and it does not come with any fins (because it is "Bare Bones" LOL, so I  would need to buy a set of 5 FCS II fins (I only have Futures fins). I find it very odd, but this person in 2020 bought this new-in-the-box 2017 SUP from an auction, interesting. I saw from the review I would have to put wax on it to use, or buy a deckpad, as it only has a rear kickpad (talk about bare bones!). The asking price of this individual is $1,067 in US ($1400 Canadian Dollars). Pics below.

I have seen the SUP Boarder video review on Youtube of the 8"6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DnQ2FUAnAM
It's mostly positive but they do point out a number of weaknesses.

Money is tight plus I have to convince my wife to allow me to buy a second board- so really curious what you'all think it is worth, and/or what I should offer. The owner never got a chance to try out the board but is moving cross-country and is selling it. I even explained to them just get a board bag and pay the fee to take it on the plane as luggage, but lucky for me they don't want to do that.

I was trying to compare prices to current Naish Boards. Seems like Naish themselves have some really good sales.. the price of 2020 Mad Dog 8"1 may not be that far off from my price after buying the fins - except I have no clue how much taxes and duties would be slapped on by Canada, not to mention any issues with it being delivered to another country with covid.

https://naishusa.com/collections/sup-sale
2019 Hokua GTW 8"6    $ 1,238 (30% off list)
2020 Hokua GTW 8"1    $ 1,415  (20% off list)
2019 Mad Dog Carbon 8"11 $ 1,497 (30% off list)
2020 Mad Dog 8"1    $ 1,260  (20% off list)
2021 S25 Hokua GTW 8"6   $ 1,819
2021 S25 Mad Dog S-Glass 8"1 Sandwich $ 1,649

I am pretty excited, but not wedded to this board. Not sure I could balance on it right off. I like the heavy rocker of the Mad Dog on the nose and tail - I could have used that a few times lately to stop pearling when having to take waves steeply because they are mushy. I am also considering the Tom Caroll / Blane Chambers Loose Leaf in say 8"8 (there is a dealer up here). I'd love to get a LairdSup Arrow Suf surp but looks like they are sold out and not even available (there was an 8"8 Surrator on Ebay but it's gone now).

Thanks for any advice/tips/thoughts on the price! Marv

[FRP]

Marvin

The board is worth what someone is willing to pay. The Naish website lists one on sale for $1299 including a set of quad fins......so about what your guy is asking for a board that is three years older. The market for short high performance boards in Canada is very very small. Perhaps offer $700-800 (Can). You would be lucky to get that for the board if you decided to resell it. You are making a huge jump down in board size and this board is going to be challenging in wind blown waves at 90 kg. Use the link to the Naish sale in your bargaining.

Cheers

Bob

https://naishusa.com/products/mad-dog

[marvinhecht]

Bob,

Thanks that is great advice - you might have saved me several hundred dollars!

I have a question - so whenever I have been on SUPs (surf or regular) that seem easier to turn on the wave, especially right at the point that you catch it - it seems these SUPS are always fatter in the middle. Like 34 inches (eg this one very close to mine but wider), I rode it a long time ago in Hawaii a few times and I was able to turn it really well.

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/Media/View/6314263/Stand%20Up%20Paddle/Surftech-Lopez-surf-music-90-x-34/?m=8

Recently I was on a buddy's 11" x 34" Jimmy Stykes SUP in windswell locally and it was a bit of a slow dog, but yet I found it also had that nice turnable feeling/ability.

What I am leading up to is this: Is it the actual width of 34 what is accounting for this seeming maneuverability? Or is it just the shape? Ie the width of the center of the board relative to the ends - eg a pointed nose and tail with a lot of 'fatness' in the middle works, even if the overall board is not very wide?

The reason I ask is that I am trying to predict if this Mad Dog will turn nicely even though it is also only 29" wide - like my current board (Gerry Lopez 10"6 x 29 Big Darling Surf sup). Because when boards really are 34 or 32 inches I just don't enjoy going straight as much - you have to paddle more on each side a bit to keep it going straight..Or it may be that I just "like" longboard style sups even for surfing since my first "surf" SUP was actually a converted windsurf board....

[devon_sup_surf]

IMO the Naish Mad Dog is too big a jump down in volume for you.

Based on your questions etc you sound like a reasonable beginner or perhaps a v early intermediate. At your weight (you don't specify your age......this may not apply as strongly if you're an extremely athletic 25 year old!)- the mad dog will be very tippy. The review even states it was tippy for its spec. He's lighter than you and on a bigger board. I don't know the volume of your 8'1 but I'm guessing 100 litres ish.

The volume of your current board is about 155L. IMO spend less money (as you will liely upgrade again) and buy something around 120-135L. 9-10' or so. The shame will depend a bit on how powerful and steep your waves are.

The naish will like steep powerful waves.

I'm coming from the perspective of progressing quite quickly over the past 4 years but I have realised that I have gone too small on a board and I miss the days of high wave count, 3 hour sessions and the ability to cruise the line up comfortably. I'm far from an expert and will be asking the wise folks on here for advice shortly 

[cnski]

Just listed a custom Kings 8'8" in the classifieds section you might be interested in Marvin....

[PonoBill]

I'm both heavier, and likely a lot older than you are, so my viewpoint is of limited value, but I've gone fairly far down in board length (8'8" L41 mini sims) and back up to a comfortable size (10'4" X 33" Foote) and I'd say you'd struggle with that board. And the price is unrealistic. If you were trying to sell it for $600 I'd say you'd be waiting a long time for a buyer.

I could ride the L41 because it's a wide and inherently stable design. You're considering a toothpick that very experienced surfers would struggle with, and it's not likely to work well in mush.

The "turny" characteristic you're talking about is why I'm so enamored with the 10'4" Foote. It turns like a much smaller board. I've struggled to understand why.

If you want the board just for the hell of it, offer 300 bucks and give him your phone number. The owner won't take that as a serious offer since he apparently has a greatly inflated idea of the value, but you'll plant the idea, and when no one else offers anything for it they might get real. If he bought it at an auction he probably paid next to nothing for it.

[dietlin]

Stick with the Big Darling and try different fin set ups.  The BD has four futures boxes and a long board center fin box - plenty of options for experimenting.  Try the largest sides (fronts) you can find and a 7.5" +/- center fin pushed all the way forward and the board will turn just fine. 

[marvinhecht]

Hi Guys, this is an awesome thread. So I am 51, in pretty good shape -  have been lifting and doing HIIT classes and Yoga for over a year, and some people have told me that I now "move like an Athlete" for whatever that's worth.  I am not a beginner, I've have been SUP surfing for 8 years, all in Honolulu where I lived, except for 1 year now here in the Great Lakes - I live in Southern Ontario. The first 2 years I rode all varieties of Surftech SUPs I could rent from their (now closed) store in Honolulu - but typically boards that were 11 ft long and 32-34 inches wide. I was 220 lbs at the time and green to the sport.  I checked my old posts and did had some bad experiences:

Al Merrik Caddi 9"7 x 29.4" x 4.25" 144L - fell 90% of the time

Jamie Mitchel    9"8  x 28"   x 4.25" 135L - could only ride on my knees

Gerry Lopez Green Lil Darling  8"11 x 28.5" x 4.13" 126L -fell off trying to stand on it in flatwater - and didn't know to perhaps try  getting it going first. A wise Hawaiian told me later "always paddle a SURF sup that you CANNOT stand on while it is not moving - you will get ABS of STEEL"

Then.. I built enough rental credit to get my Purple Big Darling- exactly 6 years ago. I checked and it is 10"6 x 29" x 4.25" with 156.6L. At that time I called it a "balance challenge" and "a good ab workout" -  but knew I would grow into it, which I did. I have a long thread on this board where I was deciding between the 11"0 Laird and this Lopez.

After  getting the Lopez, I still experimented with friends boards or rentals somewhat and I rode (in 2016) a  Boga Chubb 9"2 x 31 x 4.25" 145L. Per my notes - it was a little challenging but as long  as I kept moving, I could turn on waves and it felt like a skateboard.

In 2015 I rode a LairdSup "Surfer"  9"6 x 30.0" x 4.0" =  123.6L.  I could barely ride this board-  but it was also in Kauai where I didn't know the break and I this was a beach break which I hadn't done I remember a prone surfer telling me that when I DID ride it - I was not in control

In terms of skill I don't know what intermediate or advanced means, but I can say I am not a beginner. I was trying to attaching a video of myself on the Lopez at Populars in Waikiki - but it is too large- I can email it to whoever wants. You can see I am comfortable in head high waves, and I can turn gradually to either side, and I walk the SUP to trim it on the wave etc. I usually (but not always) turn onto waves to follow it sideways.  But  I just have never been able to bottom turn - that has been elusive!
Just as I left Hawaii, I was thinking of "upgrading" to a smaller board - but never did.

Fast Forward to today, where I am finding that in the great lakes turning my board from "parallel to the beach" into the wave (as it arrives) has been challenging--these waves come every 3 seconds. I used to have time to make a leisurely turn. Now I turn as fast as I can but it feels like I am trying to turn an oil tanker, and inevitably I have to let a wave go underneath me EXACTLY as I am turning, and then catch the NEXT wave. Because my balance is pretty good, I can do this OK.

However, what I'd like to be able to do is whip a board around in a split second to get on the very next wave. I figure with a more maneuverable board I could also do a bottom turn - eventually. I just recently learned that since I am goofy, I may have been trying to do a "backside" bottom turn which is harder than a front-side one, but whatever- I want to be able to do a bottom turn. And eventually after that I'd like to learn to do the 360 helicopter move with my board (or whatever board I get).

OK let me post this part before I lose it. Next I want to ask a bit more about fins and say some things I found out about the Mad Dog Naish.

[marvinhecht]

Ok for fins, it is awesome to know that to be able to turn better I may be able to adjust just my fins. So in this pic, I show what the one person suggested - a big fin in the middle (I only have a 9") pushed forward, and the biggest side bites I could find (white T1s). So this will help me turn the best? Should I use that 9" or use the GL1 center fin (shown lying down) - it is nearly identical in size to the T1s so this would be a thruster setup instead of a 2+1).

In the pic I also show my "usual" setup - quads with GL2's in the front and GL1's in the back - what happened is that I lost 1 of the 4 fins in the ocean for both GL1s and GLs, and while I am trying to order individual replacement fins - it is proving difficult. Otherwise I could run either the GL1 or GL2s. I have never tried anything but quads on this board, because I heard and read that "quads are faster". Well once I DO turn I find this board gets VERY fast, and it sits in that "pocket" going parallel to the wave really nicely- just getting ON the wave and starting that initial part of the turn is a challenge- especially in mushy surf.

Ok I watched the Youtube review over again and I agree with everyone - it's kind of dicy buying an 8"1  board with 111 L. I am losing weight to get back to 175 lbs which I was when I was 40, but because I am also trying to build muscle I figure I'll end up with 185 lbs. Currently I am 195 lbs. And that is WITHOUT any wetsuit. Now, per this chart and stats (all from the Naish website), I *should* be able to ride the 8"1 with 5 lbs to spare for the wetsuit:

2017-2020 Mad Dog       7"10 x 29 x 4.25  101 L for riders up to 180 lbs/82 kg
2017-2020 Mad Dog       8"1  x 29 x  4.5"  111 L for riders up to 190 lbs/86 kg
2017-2020 Mad Dog       8"6  x 29 x  4.75" 121 L  for riders up to 200 lbs/90 kg
2018-2020 Mad Dog       8"11 x 29 x  4.75"  130 L for riders up to 210 lbs/95 kg
2017-2020 Mad Dog x32 9"0  x 32 x  4      145 L
2017-2020 Mad Dog x32  9"5  x 32 x  4      160 L

The problem is - in that Youtube review of the 8"6 which I posted at the beginning, the guy says that the 8"6 actually feels somewhere between  98-105-110 L and probably 105L, not 121L. If that's true then the 8"1 probably "feels" like a 95 L board. Holy cow! I may not even be able to stand on it AT ALL, either still or moving. But per the Naish statistics - I should be OK. What gives?

I also read other reviews of the Mad dog and I found out that in 2018 it switched to all carbon for EVERY board, and they added the 8"11 for bigger riders. It also looks like the Mad Dog is meant for really tall, powerful, steep waves - dang I wish I could get this board and learn to use it back in Hawaii! I am kind of confused also because in one review it says the Mad dog is good for "powerful surf or windswell" - but in my experience- windswell is mushy, non-powerful, junky waves, hmmm.. maybe I haven't had a big enough day yet, I think the best days are yet to come once we get snow..

So tomorrow I am meeting a guy in Toronto who is 175 lbs and he has a 103L 9"0 Sunova Surf sup. Maybe he will let me try it and my goal would be to see if I can even stand on it (still), if I could that would be a good sign ...

[BigZ]

Hi Guys, this is an awesome thread. So I am 51, in pretty good shape -  have been lifting and doing HIIT classes and Yoga for over a year, and some people have told me that I now "move like an Athlete" for whatever that's worth.  I am not a beginner, I've have been SUP surfing for 8 years, all in Honolulu where I lived, except for 1 year now here in the Great Lakes - I live in Southern Ontario. The first 2 years I rode all varieties of Surftech SUPs I could rent from their (now closed) store in Honolulu - but typically boards that were 11 ft long and 32-34 inches wide. I was 220 lbs at the time and green to the sport.  I checked my old posts and did had some bad experiences:

Al Merrik Caddi 9"7 x 29.4" x 4.25" 144L - fell 90% of the time

Jamie Mitchel    9"8  x 28"   x 4.25" 135L - could only ride on my knees

Gerry Lopez Green Lil Darling  8"11 x 28.5" x 4.13" 126L -fell off trying to stand on it in flatwater - and didn't know to perhaps try  getting it going first. A wise Hawaiian told me later "always paddle a SURF sup that you CANNOT stand on while it is not moving - you will get ABS of STEEL"

Then.. I built enough rental credit to get my Purple Big Darling- exactly 6 years ago. I checked and it is 10"6 x 29" x 4.25" with 156.6L. At that time I called it a "balance challenge" and "a good ab workout" -  but knew I would grow into it, which I did. I have a long thread on this board where I was deciding between the 11"0 Laird and this Lopez.

After  getting the Lopez, I still experimented with friends boards or rentals somewhat and I rode (in 2016) a  Boga Chubb 9"2 x 31 x 4.25" 145L. Per my notes - it was a little challenging but as long  as I kept moving, I could turn on waves and it felt like a skateboard.

In 2015 I rode a LairdSup "Surfer"  9"6 x 30.0" x 4.0" =  123.6L.  I could barely ride this board-  but it was also in Kauai where I didn't know the break and I this was a beach break which I hadn't done I remember a prone surfer telling me that when I DID ride it - I was not in control

In terms of skill I don't know what intermediate or advanced means, but I can say I am not a beginner. I was trying to attaching a video of myself on the Lopez at Populars in Waikiki - but it is too large- I can email it to whoever wants. You can see I am comfortable in head high waves, and I can turn gradually to either side, and I walk the SUP to trim it on the wave etc. I usually (but not always) turn onto waves to follow it sideways.  But  I just have never been able to bottom turn - that has been elusive!
Just as I left Hawaii, I was thinking of "upgrading" to a smaller board - but never did.

Fast Forward to today, where I am finding that in the great lakes turning my board from "parallel to the beach" into the wave (as it arrives) has been challenging--these waves come every 3 seconds. I used to have time to make a leisurely turn. Now I turn as fast as I can but it feels like I am trying to turn an oil tanker, and inevitably I have to let a wave go underneath me EXACTLY as I am turning, and then catch the NEXT wave. Because my balance is pretty good, I can do this OK.

However, what I'd like to be able to do is whip a board around in a split second to get on the very next wave. I figure with a more maneuverable board I could also do a bottom turn - eventually. I just recently learned that since I am goofy, I may have been trying to do a "backside" bottom turn which is harder than a front-side one, but whatever- I want to be able to do a bottom turn. And eventually after that I'd like to learn to do the 360 helicopter move with my board (or whatever board I get).

OK let me post this part before I lose it. Next I want to ask a bit more about fins and say some things I found out about the Mad Dog Naish.

If you had lived in Hawaii and have been SUP surfing for 8 years you should now that surf SUPs (especially highly rockered ones like Mad Dog)  will be rather  useless in Southern Ontario. The only time you get semi-surfable waves is when it’s blowing 25 knots or more. The closet you get to surfing is down winding or some kind of a wind sport. Don’t waste your money on a Surf SUP. Get a 14 footer or learn to kite and/or foil.

[devon_sup_surf]

MarvinHechit

Thanks for the additional info and your background. It definitely helps.

I live in the UK- so I'm unclear as to what sort of quality waves you're surfing- it sounds to me like generally they are quite weak ?

As to your board history- something doesn't quite add up to me
 It sounds like- at your weight age and fitness levels- you should be capable of riding much smaller boards than you have.

You say you have been surfing for 8 years- how frequently do you surf ? As based on your board history and manoeuvring ability- you sound at best an early intermediate to me.

I'm not trying to be rude- but getting a board thats too advanced for us is counter productive. I speak from experience.

Your Hawaiian friend who suggests getting a vv tippy board to get abs is right- it will give you a great workout. But it WONT get you surfing many waves and it WILL stop your progression. I speak from experience!

Fins can certainly change how a board surfs- making them turn better or feel more locked in in bigger surf- or slowing them down or speeding them up on a wave. They don't do much for stability, however- so consider them icing on the cake and don't worry about them for the moment.

Can you put your video on YouTube ?

How frequently can you commit to go surfing with your new  board ? How prepared are you to have frustrating and tired sessions vs just having fun and catching loads of waves? How good a quality and powerful waves are you riding?

All the above determines what board you want to choose. But the Mad Dog is a v advanced board for light advanced riders on powerful good quality waves. This doesn't sound like you (or me!).

Some of the boards you mention that you couldn't even stand on- the Jamie mitchel, the laid supsurfer- the lil darlin- are all more stable than the naish!

IMO buy a used board much cheaper so at least it's a cheap swap if you buy the wrong board.

If you want a board thays stable but still turns you could consider one of the stubby style ones in the big sizes. These work in weak waves. JP slate or Starboard Hypernut. But get the big ones. 8.5-9' 140L types. But you will need to be better with your wave judging because they won't glide well.

Sokething around 9-10' and 30-31" 135-140L IMO.

[jjdub]

I'm sure I overlooked a lot of details because the posts are too long for my ADD.
In that pic, that blue fin. Ditch it, the board won't pivot with that fin. I rode it on a 9' clmb Hobie raw and it's not a fin for surfing.  You have gl fins. Run the smallest ones you have.  I run a gl thruster set in my 9'9 imagine and it makes a huge difference.  If you still can't pivot or make a bottom turn with those fins, I'm sorry but it's extremely unlikely that changing the board is going to help.  It sounds like there is a lot of room to grow with the board you have.
When I dropped down to a 100L board I found I lost a lot of glide, had a tippier board and it was a lot more difficult to catch waves and the ride quality on wave wasn't much better for intermediate skills.
If money is tight save your money.  Taking up kiting was a great suggestion.
I just took a closer look at that 10'6 and it's a good looking shape. Nice rails, nice tail, good rocker.  Ride it with smaller fins. Practice your pivot turn. Move center fin more to middle or front of box. Stop trying to catch a wave going down the line. Go straight down the wave face, when you feel that jolt of speed from going from top to bottom and you're out in the flats, then carry that speed back up to the top.  Surf top to bottom, not cruising down the line in the middle of the face with no speed and power to do anything.
Look around the 2min Mark here. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv5vEma62o8
Seems like a similar board to yours and it's plenty lively with the right fins I think you'll be happier

[BigZ]

Hi Guys, this is an awesome thread. So I am 51, in pretty good shape -  have been lifting and doing HIIT classes and Yoga for over a year, and some people have told me that I now "move like an Athlete" for whatever that's worth.  I am not a beginner, I've have been SUP surfing for 8 years, all in Honolulu where I lived, except for 1 year now here in the Great Lakes - I live in Southern Ontario. The first 2 years I rode all varieties of Surftech SUPs I could rent from their (now closed) store in Honolulu - but typically boards that were 11 ft long and 32-34 inches wide. I was 220 lbs at the time and green to the sport.  I checked my old posts and did had some bad experiences:

Al Merrik Caddi 9"7 x 29.4" x 4.25" 144L - fell 90% of the time

Jamie Mitchel    9"8  x 28"   x 4.25" 135L - could only ride on my knees

Gerry Lopez Green Lil Darling  8"11 x 28.5" x 4.13" 126L -fell off trying to stand on it in flatwater - and didn't know to perhaps try  getting it going first. A wise Hawaiian told me later "always paddle a SURF sup that you CANNOT stand on while it is not moving - you will get ABS of STEEL"

Then.. I built enough rental credit to get my Purple Big Darling- exactly 6 years ago. I checked and it is 10"6 x 29" x 4.25" with 156.6L. At that time I called it a "balance challenge" and "a good ab workout" -  but knew I would grow into it, which I did. I have a long thread on this board where I was deciding between the 11"0 Laird and this Lopez.

After  getting the Lopez, I still experimented with friends boards or rentals somewhat and I rode (in 2016) a  Boga Chubb 9"2 x 31 x 4.25" 145L. Per my notes - it was a little challenging but as long  as I kept moving, I could turn on waves and it felt like a skateboard.

In 2015 I rode a LairdSup "Surfer"  9"6 x 30.0" x 4.0" =  123.6L.  I could barely ride this board-  but it was also in Kauai where I didn't know the break and I this was a beach break which I hadn't done I remember a prone surfer telling me that when I DID ride it - I was not in control

In terms of skill I don't know what intermediate or advanced means, but I can say I am not a beginner. I was trying to attaching a video of myself on the Lopez at Populars in Waikiki - but it is too large- I can email it to whoever wants. You can see I am comfortable in head high waves, and I can turn gradually to either side, and I walk the SUP to trim it on the wave etc. I usually (but not always) turn onto waves to follow it sideways.  But  I just have never been able to bottom turn - that has been elusive!
Just as I left Hawaii, I was thinking of "upgrading" to a smaller board - but never did.

Fast Forward to today, where I am finding that in the great lakes turning my board from "parallel to the beach" into the wave (as it arrives) has been challenging--these waves come every 3 seconds. I used to have time to make a leisurely turn. Now I turn as fast as I can but it feels like I am trying to turn an oil tanker, and inevitably I have to let a wave go underneath me EXACTLY as I am turning, and then catch the NEXT wave. Because my balance is pretty good, I can do this OK.

However, what I'd like to be able to do is whip a board around in a split second to get on the very next wave. I figure with a more maneuverable board I could also do a bottom turn - eventually. I just recently learned that since I am goofy, I may have been trying to do a "backside" bottom turn which is harder than a front-side one, but whatever- I want to be able to do a bottom turn. And eventually after that I'd like to learn to do the 360 helicopter move with my board (or whatever board I get).

OK let me post this part before I lose it. Next I want to ask a bit more about fins and say some things I found out about the Mad Dog Naish.

If you had lived in Hawaii and have been SUP surfing for 8 years you should now that surf SUPs (especially highly rockered ones like Mad Dog)  will be rather  useless in Southern Ontario. The only time you get semi-surfable waves is when it’s blowing 25 knots or more. The closest you get to surfing is down winding or some kind of a wind sport. Don’t waste your money on a Surf SUP. Get a 14 footer or learn to kite and/or foil.

Also, wind swell in the Naish’s description does not refer to wind generated messy chop you get on Great Lakes. They mean a short period Ocean waves.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.surfline.com/surf-news/groundswell-vs-windswell/2439/amp

I windsurfed, kitesurfed, and paddled virtually every spot on Lake Erie, Lake Ontario, and Lake Huron. Used to live a walking distance from one of the best “surfing” spots on Lake Ontario. Had a cottage on Lake Huron. After surfing, SUP surfing, and kite surfing California Coast for the past 5 years, I would never imagine using something like Mad Dog anywhere in Southern Ontario. In fact, I would have barely had any use for 8’1 Mad Dog in many California spots. Lake Superior - May be.

[PonoBill]

You can turn a lot faster on a board you are comfortable on. Sounds like you need to practice pivot turns. Racers can spin a 14' board in a microsecond. I suck at pivot turns but I can spin my 17' downwind boards or my 18' speedboard in a 180 turn in a second or two. I suggest you get in some flatwater with your board and practice turning. Start with no thrusters and the big fugly fin you have. take a long step back and sweep, with your back foot on top of the fin and your knees bent so you can push weight forward if you tip back too far. Watch some video and practice it.

In the video above, note how far back the surfers are to get some turning performance out of their large boards in small surf. Your back foot needs to be near the fin to make a bigger board turn. You also generally need to move your back foot close to the rail to crank a hard turn, especially bottom turns.

From what you say you have a fair amount of experience but you haven't progressed much. That's what happens to a lot of people. If you just go out and surf to have fun you'll have a blast but you won't progress. You need to have a goal for some specific element each time you go out, and some of the things you need to learn are best learned out of the lineup.

If you can't crank an instant pivot or a hard bottom turn on the board you have, switching to one you can hardly stand on won't make that happen. But once you have your pivot turn down, stick that huge fin in a drawer somewhere and get a decent center fin. A dophin shape about half the size of the one you have will make that board come alive. You could also set it up as a quad, but in the mushy shit you're likely to be surfing in you'd be better off with a 2+1 with a center fin just a little bigger than the thrusters. Or even the same size.

Your current thrusters are bigger than my largest surf fin. Don't put those in a drawer--give them to someone you don't like. That set of honeycomb fins look about right. It will take you two or three sessions to get comfortable with them. Don't try them once and switch back--your first session will be horrible, the tail will feel uncontrollable. Move around on the board a little, put a little more weight on the tail. In the second session they'll start to feel kind of OK, by the third session you'll never be able to go back to that riverboat keel you currently have installed.

Big fins don't make a board turn better, they apply more directional force when they are moving (and more drag) and any characteristic they have is hugely amplified when you're in a wave and planeing. Smaller fins feel skatey at first, but once you learn how to plant them, or how to take advantage of their ability to slip you'll be able to turn better in mush. You need fins that hold fast when you're in bigger waves that are pitching out. In mush, you don't.

[marvinhecht]

Hey guys, I wrote this huge long response with all sorts of links and details, then the site said I hadn't logged in, wasn't allowed to post, and I lost it. So let me try again, maybe doing 2 or 2 posts. I really value the feedback of each and every one of you. How about I pretend I am at work and do a "bullet point" response and try to be succinct:

The missing piece is this. I've been a smart academic and fat computer guy most of my life -physical education was always my worst grade. I was 260 bs until I was 40, then lost 100 lbs, then over 9 years got back up to 235 etc.
So while I believe I am getting in shape now (finally) and moving "athletically" it has never been natural to me. For example even recently a guy saw me SUPing and said I need to hip-hinge and get my butt lower like I am taking a dump. Also, my time in Hawaii was split between bodybuilding, SUP Yoga (got certified to teach it), Hot Yoga on land, skateboarding with my kids (not very well), and even within the SUP ecosphere I did a bit of everything: a handful of downwinders, a handful of SUP races (renting long skinny boards), and I even tried some bodyboarding and regular (prone) surfing. In face when I took a SUP surf lesson my coach made me take regular (prone) surf lessons with her because she said I was keeping my legs parallel too long before jumping into surf stance, and even then, I'd use the paddle to turn not by body- she was showing me how to "step on the gas" or the brake by leaning on my right or left foot. I've prone surfed only about a dozen times and I use a 9" or 10" board I feel like a 7" is too short.  Also because I was into so many things, I probably averaged once or twice a week going SUP surfing, sometimes more, sometimes less. Also I had a board locker in Waikiki so 90% of the time I was on the long, slow, long-board type rollers in Waikiki, and my board was suited for it. I did take a few SUP surf lessons on the North shore in Haleiwa and it fun but pretty stressful on the steeper, quicker waves. Also I was in enough scary situations by accident that I didn't tend to take risks. I wouldn't say I am afraid of heights but when I would look over the lip of a double overhead wave I would get scared. I learned the hard way to go sideways not straight down, and I think in the end I was comfortable in head-high waves, but big slow rollers. I wasn't good enough to surf at Queens in Waikiki on a regular basis. My favorite brake was Populars, nice big waves that looked mean but were gentle giants and gave you time to adjust on the wave. And yes, it didn't hurt that all around me were women in bikinis, I probably got distracted more than once. And I am not at all competitive. Also, I tend to keep my boards a long time, ironically perhaps if I had kept renting the whole time I'd be down to a 9"0 board already. But it's good that I got my board when I did, a year later the surftech store closed and I would have lost my credit.

OK someone asked for footage. OK here is me at Populars in Waikiki. This is the best SUP surfing that I've done where I am captured on camera. Best to make it full-screen when playing.
  https://www.facebook.com/marvinhecht/posts/10154458388494559

I also thought I'd have the rest of my life to get better at SUP surfing, so I wasn't worried about getting good fast. I got laid off from my computer job in Hawaii and ran into some personal / family issues, so I ended up abruptly moving back home to Canada in 2017. I also took 1.5 years off because I was in denial. Then I got a chance to surf in the Disney wave pool. This is me surfing prone in Disney's Wave pool in January of this year (Below). My post continues on the next page....

       https://www.facebook.com/721134558/videos/10157929871039559/