Author Topic: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?  (Read 2065 times)

Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2020, 10:21:10 PM »
Sufficient ?
If it leaks, then no.

So on something that small, would you just tell it leaks by storing it upside down and checking the small spot on the deck pad for water later ?

Sorry, might seem like obvious questions to you seasoned fellas
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TallDude

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2020, 11:10:34 PM »
There's the drive home test on the roof racks and not in a bag. As long as it's sunny, the board will get warm enough for the gas inside to expand. Listen and look for bubbles all around your board. Always works for me. ;)
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Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2020, 06:51:30 AM »
There's the drive home test on the roof racks and not in a bag. As long as it's sunny, the board will get warm enough for the gas inside to expand. Listen and look for bubbles all around your board. Always works for me. ;)

Itíll be sunny again up here in about 5 months so I guess Iíll find out then !
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SupSimcoe

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2020, 07:13:28 AM »
Now that I see the brand I have some feedback.
For the first issue this board is made in the Kinetic factory with roughly the same PVC construction as Jimmy Lewis boards. I had a few JL boards but my last one was a JL Rail. That one was amazingly light but any time I hit it hard it would dent or dent and crack. I dented and cracked the top with my paddle blade. Which was like your first issue and that fix with epoxy and sticker should be fine but keep in mind another hit may go into the second layer and require a much better fix. That JL Rail board eventually got a huge crack on the side from a large wave that hit the board and pushed it into the paddle. That needed a full rebuild of the inner layer and PVC and outer layer. The second puncture may have issues in the future, as you definitely went into the EPS, so I would keep an eye on that one.

I also had a 2018 Inifinity Whiplash dugout and that was made in the same Kinetic factory but single layer construction. That was not light but was very durable. I fell on the deck a few times and barely dented that one and hits to the side were no issue. These definitely would have cracked the Rail. Personally I think that putting all of the weight into a thicker single layer has its benefits for durability but if the outside is hit and cracks then the EPS is exposed and will start sucking in water so that is where the PVC sandwich has some other benefits other than added stiffness with less weight.
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Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2020, 09:36:22 AM »
SUPSimcoe,

Thanks for sharing man!

So Iíve seen the diagrams, but help me understand this construction. Is it:

Thin layer of paint
Thin layer of carbon
Then layer of PVC
Then foam
?

Kickin myself about the drill slip, but what are ya gonna do ? Stuff happens.
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Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2020, 09:43:13 AM »
Guess I donít totally know what sandwich means.
Also didnít realize there was bamboo in there !

Would be cool to see a video of something being made in that factory.
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PonoBill

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2020, 10:03:51 AM »
The intent of sandwich construction is to make something stronger and stiffer for the same or less weight. It doesn't HAVE to be lighter, and the outer layer doesn't have to be thin, but it can be. It's like a girder vs. a solid bar of steel. The girder is much stiffer for the same weight of material. Or better yet, maybe line an aluminum clad honeycomb sheet vs a sheet of aluminum twice the thickness of the cladding. You can bend the plain aluminum sheet easily, but the honeycomb sheet is rigid.

Jimmy chose to make the Rail as light as it could be and still be structurally rigid. That means the cladding on the sandwich (the inner and outer skin) is thin. A crack through the outer skin won't fill the board with water because PVC is closed cell, but it can introduce enough water to create a delamination over time.

Most (maybe all) production windsurf boards are sandwich construction because they have to be much stronger than a surfboard. But they are also very tough because the outer skin is thick. You can, and some folks do, make a very rigid sandwich board with a single layer of glass, then PVC, then a single layer of glass. I had a downwind board that used veil as the inner and outer layer--that's about the equivilent of 1/2 oz fabric, where most surfboards would use at least one layer of 6oz and one or two of 4oz. The board was super rigid because the PVC was 3/8" instead of 1/4" or 1/8", but if you set it down on pebbles any sharp ones would go right through the skin. It's sitting behind my shop covered in dust.
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Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2020, 01:32:07 PM »

I also had a 2018 Inifinity Whiplash dugout and that was made in the same Kinetic factory but single layer construction. That was not light but was very durable.


I've got the 2019 Dugout Whip in 21" and it's definitely lighter than the 23" PVC blackfish (not sure by how much; haven't weighed). It also seems way more durable. Possibly the construction ? Then again the I only take the whiplash out on flat and mildly textured days, but I take the Blackfish out when it's freakin' HONKIN'
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Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2020, 01:34:30 PM »
The intent of sandwich construction is to make something stronger and stiffer for the same or less weight. It doesn't HAVE to be lighter, and the outer layer doesn't have to be thin, but it can be. It's like a girder vs. a solid bar of steel. The girder is much stiffer for the same weight of material. Or better yet, maybe line an aluminum clad honeycomb sheet vs a sheet of aluminum twice the thickness of the cladding. You can bend the plain aluminum sheet easily, but the honeycomb sheet is rigid.

Jimmy chose to make the Rail as light as it could be and still be structurally rigid. That means the cladding on the sandwich (the inner and outer skin) is thin. A crack through the outer skin won't fill the board with water because PVC is closed cell, but it can introduce enough water to create a delamination over time.

Most (maybe all) production windsurf boards are sandwich construction because they have to be much stronger than a surfboard. But they are also very tough because the outer skin is thick. You can, and some folks do, make a very rigid sandwich board with a single layer of glass, then PVC, then a single layer of glass. I had a downwind board that used veil as the inner and outer layer--that's about the equivilent of 1/2 oz fabric, where most surfboards would use at least one layer of 6oz and one or two of 4oz. The board was super rigid because the PVC was 3/8" instead of 1/4" or 1/8", but if you set it down on pebbles any sharp ones would go right through the skin. It's sitting behind my shop covered in dust.

Thanks for this explanation Pono!

I guess I really should've peeled that pad back more and looked closer to see if the ouncture got to the foam, but all I can do now is keep my fingers crossed it was superficial and that the combo of the hole filled with epoxy and the deck pad epoxied over it keeps the water out.

Thanks again! This was helpful.
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Luc Benac

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2020, 02:40:08 PM »
To be frank , I still do not understand the construction on the Naish Maliko 2020 and up. It says carbon sandwich but I still fail to see where the sandwich is.
All I see is:
Paint Layer
Carbon Layer
Glass Layer
To me a sandwich should require at least three layers of material i.e. excluding paint obviously

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Dwight (DW)

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2020, 03:54:02 PM »
To be frank , I still do not understand the construction on the Naish Maliko 2020 and up. It says carbon sandwich but I still fail to see where the sandwich is.
All I see is:
Paint Layer
Carbon Layer
Glass Layer
To me a sandwich should require at least three layers of material i.e. excluding paint obviously

Wood is the sandwiched material

Luc Benac

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2020, 05:37:16 PM »
Wood is the sandwiched material

Yes but that is only on the standing area.....
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Dwight (DW)

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2020, 05:42:50 PM »
Wood is the sandwiched material

Yes but that is only on the standing area.....

Well carbon doesnít mean all carbon either. Marketing.

Innegra doesnít mean all Innegra, the list goes on.

Plus manufacturers tint epoxy black to fake you out
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 05:45:34 PM by Dwight (DW) »

Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2020, 09:13:21 PM »

Well carbon doesn’t mean all carbon either. Marketing.

Innegra doesn’t mean all Innegra, the list goes on.

Plus manufacturers tint epoxy black to fake you out

SOB! The more you know ...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 09:17:43 PM by Kip »
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Kip

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Re: Are cracks in PVC fairly common ?
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2020, 05:36:26 AM »
This was neat for a newbie like me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5JoIRJbOMs


Also was headed pick up a lightly used Downtown dugout in a couple weeks for $1500, but might consider a Rail if I can find one.
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