Author Topic: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?  (Read 2610 times)

clay

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Maybe I'm overthinking this...

Wondering if anyone makes a foil "lift kit" or extender for track/pedestal mount?  Essentially a hollow box that goes between foil and board.

Something light and strong that will allow playing with a taller mast without needing to buy another mast, or find out if taller will work first.

I've seen foil sleeve for tuttle, and there are stackable shim kits from wizardhat.  Both those seem like they would ad unnecessary weight.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

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SUPdad

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 12:52:02 AM »
At first I thought a simple hollowed out box shape would work like you said. But then if you’re up 2”, that sounds like a lot of drag when paddling around.  Would you even notice a 1” taller mast?  I’m not sure I would. Not even sure I’d notice 2” but, then again, I’m not very observant.  ;D

Califoilia

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 10:08:51 AM »
Maybe I'm overthinking this...

I've seen foil sleeve for tuttle, and there are stackable shim kits from wizardhat.  Both those seem like they would ad unnecessary weight.
Yeah, the Tuttle adapter concept comes to mind, adding about 3" to the setup going from Tuttle to mast tracks. But if you already have mast tracks, really I think buying an additional mast would be cheaper (the Tuttle adapters are about $170, and a new Axis mast is $100-$125 depending on length), pretty sure you'd also save on the weight factor between the two, not to mention you can always cut the aluminum masts down to exactly the size you want if you went too long, the adapter plate is one and done.
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

clay

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2020, 10:27:36 AM »
I hear ya.

The foil I'm thinking of has a carbon mast and I'm uncertain what height is the sweet spot.  Carbon and aluminum are apples and oranges, the same height feels different to me.

When I am doing tight turns I am often millimeters from breaching wing tips, and when the surface if rough every inch helps...
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liv2surf

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2020, 11:39:24 AM »
Maybe I'm overthinking this...

Wondering if anyone makes a foil "lift kit" or extender for track/pedestal mount?  Essentially a hollow box that goes between foil and board.

Something light and strong that will allow playing with a taller mast without needing to buy another mast, or find out if taller will work first.

I've seen foil sleeve for tuttle, and there are stackable shim kits from wizardhat.  Both those seem like they would ad unnecessary weight.

The wizardhat stackable shims that I have are all canted .. but you could put two in opposite directions to give 0 degrees. They are made for 6mm bolts, so if you are running 8mm they require machining and are not worth the effort (just make some from scratch). Also they are not going to give you much elevation change.... but I think a block of sufficiently rigid material might let you do this mast height experiment.
5'6 Quatro Wingdrifter Pro 105L; Cabrinha Mantis 3.1m, 4m, 5m and 6m; Axis 1000 (1150, 1020); Project Cedrus 91 cm carbon mast (68 cm fuse, 440/5000 rear); 9'6" CRUZ Surf foil SUP (152L); Chinook Thrust 92 Paddle -- fixed 78" length; 'prone' longboards on the rack, kites in the garage.

Califoilia

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2020, 07:06:57 PM »
I hear ya.

The foil I'm thinking of has a carbon mast and I'm uncertain what height is the sweet spot.  Carbon and aluminum are apples and oranges, the same height feels different to me.
Most definitely, and I'm an "oranges" lover for the simplicity of them, the little to no flex of them, and there's no comparison in prices of how much cheaper "oranges" are than "apples".
Quote
When I am doing tight turns I am often millimeters from breaching wing tips, and when the surface if rough every inch helps...
Yep, for sure. Where I'm at, it seems to be a precarious balance of getting the longest mast possible for the reasons you mention, but also short enough that we're not bouncing them across shallow reef we seem to have to contend with more days than not. :-\
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

PonoBill

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2020, 08:04:48 PM »
The 96CM Axis Carbon mast is a revelation. Low drag, very stiff, and that extra 6 CM over my 90CM aluminum mast feels significant--until i get used to it, and then I'll be overfoiling from a little higher up.

I don't know what the optimal mast length is. some of the best of the best kite foilers are on improbably long masts with tiny wings at the end of them. The use the mast length to whip aound and do all kinds of whacked and intense moves. I doubt that has much relevance for us, but a long mast is not just beneficial for keeping the wing in the water, it also enables more radical turns and sweeping banks. Shorter masts don't give enough leverage.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

surfcowboy

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 12:13:35 AM »
Yeah, Gong sells a 100cm carbon and tested a 120cm version for winging. They actually said basically the same, (translated by Google.) You get used to what you have but for winging longer is better.

Clay, my only concern with a shim would be breaking longer bolts. If you do this, get someone to cnc something that lets you use regular bolts and then bolts to the top of your mast too, with 4 more bolts. A 3” x 6mm bolt through a shim can’t be stable at the point of mounting, can it guys?

This is the business challenge with all carbon mast systems. Super nice and stiff, but it’s a whole new (expensive) mold to make another length. Aluminum guys can just extrude and cut off a longer piece. Carbon masts require a significant capital investment to add even 1 cm.

Ok enough chatter, here’s my fix, stop Clay if this is idiotic.

Buy two aluminum mounting plates and a cheap 45 cm mast. Cut the mast so you’re using just enough to couple the two plates together, effectively making a 3” mast which should be stiff as heck. Bolt one plate to your plate and one to your board. You’ll need a silly right angle driver but it’ll work and won’t be too expensive unless you use those awesome Axis plates which are cnc’d.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2020, 03:37:39 AM »

The foil I'm thinking of has a carbon mast and I'm uncertain what height is the sweet spot.

For surfing or winging? Down winding or surfing?


PonoBill

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2020, 09:06:57 AM »
Cowboy--yeah, long bolts are inherently a bit fragile, especially if they are in shear. A solution like you suggest would be stronger, but I'd expect you'd need a hell of a lot of power to get off the water. A leash wrapped around the mast can be enough added drag to keep you pinned on the surface. It seems to me a cigar box a few inches thick would need a lot of oomph.

I realize this post is about retrofit solutions, but carbon masts could be made like aluminum masts--in long sections that get cut to size. The design approach I had in mind has been patented (I forget the company name, but the inventor posted on the zone recently) but there are other ways to accomplish the same result. I don't expect any larger-scale manufacturer to leap on the idea, they already have solutions that more or less work and are accepted by the market.

In my experience the jump in length needs to be substantial to see the benefits you hope for. Going from the GoFoil 24" (61CM) to 29.5" (75 CM) was a big deal, and eliminated overfoiling in surf for me--for about a week. Then I got used to it and started a new round of 5 inch higher faceplants. I didn't see any big improvement in handling, though that was probably more about my abilities than actual performance.

I was quite skeptical of jumping from the Axis 19mm aluminum 75CM to 90CM (35.5") based on that experience, but once I tried it I haven't gone back. The handling difference was remarkable. I didn't care much about the overfoiling benefit since i expected it to fade quickly, and it has. I'm now faceplanting from the top of a stepladder instead of one step before the top.

Admin and Chan were enthusiastic about the 96CM carbon mast, but after a bit more time with it and some switching back and forth I don't see much difference in feel between the 90 CM aluminum Axis mast and the 96 CM Carbon, other than the carbon mast is beautiful. I probably see little difference because i've already experienced the difference in handling between 75CM and 90CM. Another 6CM (about two inches) turns out to not make for a significant handling difference. If there's a lot of drag reduction (probably is) I don't detect it since I'm constantly screwing with foil wings and stabilizers anyway and probably can't separate that out. I also only have the ultrashort fuselage in the new configuration required for the carbon mast, and I'm not a fan of that length. I have a short fuse on the way, I'll probably be a bit more enthusiastic once I can compare apples to apples. I never use the ultrashort with the 90 Aluminum mast.

Beside me rambling on, the point is that a few inch change in length won't make a lasting difference. Maybe I shouldn't have buried that lede.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 09:15:44 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

clay

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2020, 09:38:13 AM »

The foil I'm thinking of has a carbon mast and I'm uncertain what height is the sweet spot.

For surfing or winging? Down winding or surfing?

Surf foiling.

Winging I just go as long as I can get and problem solved.   with surfing I've found to long creates a "pendulum" effect and swinging rail to rail becomes harder.

Hearing great comments,  thanks!
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

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Dwight (DW)

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2020, 11:05:17 AM »
For Surf Foiling, the 72-75 range is best for me. Faster reacting, while still having a reduced chance of not blowing out.

Back in the early days, I recall hearing Dave Kalama would not go longer than 24” because it reacts faster. But that has changed. Everyone went a little longer.

At 85 cm, turns become more sweeping. More like jibing, than making a surf turn.

I know one guy riding shorter than 72-75 (65cm). He is doing it solely to let him sit inside at low tide.

PonoBill

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Re: Track mount height extender? To make the foil taller by 1 or 2"?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2020, 02:19:46 PM »
I tried a home-made 55CM Axis mast (cut down a damaged 75) in the surf. I didn't like it much--I touched the rail every time I turned, and I don't turn hard, so that's saying something. Going down the line I touched the rail into the face of the wave a few times and promptly rounded up out the back. I retired it after one session.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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