Author Topic: first experience on a production foil  (Read 780 times)

SUPeter

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first experience on a production foil
« on: September 04, 2020, 07:31:03 AM »
I'm really not sure where to post this but since my whole foiling attention is now on winging, I thought it might as well be here.  As some of you  know, I live in Maine.  Northern Maine to be more specific.  Foiling here is very much in its infancy even though this is my third year of appreciating its many joys.  Its even harder to believe that the only foils I have ever flown have been of my own creation.  Well that all changed last night when a future foiling/wingfoiling buddy brought his new Naish Hover 95l board(damn is that thing light)and his 1650 foil set up.  No wind, so we decided to continue his training behind my boat in hopes of getting him accustomed to his new rig.  Getting towed behind the boat on his Naish rig opened my eyes to the variance in foil design.  The Naish 1650 definitely was fun to fly and also very agile but I could not get over the fact that its top end speed was very, I mean very,  noticeable.  I could barely apply enough front foot pressure to keep that wing from breaching at higher(17-20 mph?).  This is entirely new to me except for the very first foils I made.  Upon looking and measuring the washout, It seemed like the Naish foil had maybe .5 degree or so.  This being my only explanation.  My last 3 wings offer none of this excess lift at even 20-25 mph, the limit of my little outboard.   While the Naish foil offered great low speed glide, its upper end speed seemed hemmed in and a lot less forgiving.  Is this normal for most production wings at higher speeds?  I just feel that wingfoing needs a foil that will allow great lift at lower speeds and not too much lift at higher speeds.   Still working on my next 52" wide +/- ultra high aspect wingfoiling wing experiment in hopes that these questions may be answered.  Until then I will enjoy the wings I have made, even more-so now.

PonoBill

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Re: first experience on a production foil
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2020, 08:32:55 AM »
While you were measuring washout did you measure the stabilizer incidence angle relative to the wing? I recently measured a Naish setup with very swoopy wings (both stabilizer and main wing--I'm not sure what it's called). the owner was complaining that when he got it up to speed with his wing that he could barely keep it in the water and it seemed very draggy. Measuring incidence angle with such radical changes in dihedral/anhedral is a challenge, but after making numerous measurement I got somewhere in the range of 5-6 degrees.

I suggested shimming to reduce the angle. He did, reduced it to 3 degrees, and pronounced it improved but still not to his liking. The owner is an experienced kite foiler.

I think the high incidence angles are a way for manufacturers to ensure their foils get up easily. Of course, once you're up the angle is still there, trying to tip the main wing into a higher angle of attack. The only way to counter that is with more front foot pressure, essentially flying with a five degree up angle on the "elevator".
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Caribsurf

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Re: first experience on a production foil
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2020, 08:49:36 AM »
SUPeter, glad you got to try the Naish wing and experienced first hand how these production foils work.  All they want to do is fly.  My first time on a foil I thought I was going to have to work at getting it airborne, but it became more of a battle of keeping the foil in the water.  My front thighs were burning.

We went camping outside of  Waldoboro, Maine  the last few days. We had a 90 acre pond all to ourselves, it was amazing.  Not enough wind to foil, but the venue would have been incredible for foiling had it been windy.  I winged a few downwinders on a SUP  and would paddle back ..still a lot of fun.

Looking forward to some Fall winds here in Kittery Point.  I still haven't found the ideal launch and wind directions for wing foiling here. Problem is a lot of rocks many hidden below the surface.  Maybe once the lifeguards leave I can just foil at Long Sands in York.
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Admin

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Re: first experience on a production foil
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2020, 03:51:05 AM »
There is a huge variety of production foils out there so generalizing is not really possible.  We are probably just now starting to see foils that have been designed with winging even partially in mind.  A lot of the large, thick, early lift foils that are still out there seem like they were designed to lift 14 foot downwind SUPS at paddling speed.  That was actually really nice to get us airborne and cruising but it came with a price.  At the other extreme you have super knifed out kite foils and windsurf foils that have super low volume, etc.  In between you have a huge variety of surf foils, cruiser kite an windsurf foils, and downwind SUP foils. 

Thinking about it, we wingers have our own design needs.

We have more available power than SUP's. We aren't waiting for waves or swell for all of our power.  We have a lot less power than kites and less than windsurfers.  Pumping has a different function for winging.  We always have the wing, even luffed.  We aren't dock starting.  We basically pump to maintain glide (and optionally to assist in take off or accelerate). 

There are definitely production wings out there that will not blow up on you or toss you around, still have good glide and good acceleration.  It seems like a lot of brands are starting to (about to) fill in the gaps between 1000 and 1400 cm 2.  Not that area is the end all but there are a lot of new entries in 1050, 1250, 1450 (or similar) quivers for mid sized riders.  Plenty are pushing it down into even smaller foils again.  There was an interesting topic on FB about wingers using foils under 1000 cm 2.  A lot of riders are checking that out as well.

Who knows what a little wing specific design will allow going forward.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 03:54:23 AM by Admin »

clay

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Re: first experience on a production foil
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2020, 09:29:01 AM »
What Bill and Admin said. 

And my experience is low aspect "surf" foils are good for learning to wing, that low speed lift is easier and more forgiving.  And then they start to suck as they aren't designed to handle the speed range and multiple power sources we get with winging.  I went as far as to shim my stab to a positive upforce angle trying to tame the lift, it wasn't enough.  Higher aspect foil is much better for intermediate plus level winging.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

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SUPeter

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Re: first experience on a production foil
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2020, 04:06:17 AM »
Thanks all!  Very good insights here!!    It occurred to me after posting this that shimming the stabilizer might be what is needed.  The stab is quite large on his set up and any increase in AoA would be extremely noticeable.  I can remember how much lift I was getting when I first tried my current set up.  A little shim changed everything. Thanks again.  I'll let him know.

 


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