Author Topic: Wing foil sessions - beginner  (Read 24876 times)

bigmtn

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #90 on: July 26, 2021, 01:27:43 PM »
my recommendation for learning jibes. 
get speed up
depower wing (one hand it)
turn downwind (wind should keep you flying) think 90-120 deg turn. if there are waves/bumps turn onto bump, so you can ride bump while wing is depowered
switch hands (both hands now, but wing is flat and still depowered)
slowly finish the turn, while slowly adding more power to wing

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #91 on: July 26, 2021, 06:50:25 PM »
As usual, thatís solid advice.

Question for the team. I notice that when I start to slow down my nose rises. Am I just unconsciously weighting the back foot? And if so, can I assume that I should just keep the hammer down and take the last bit of the glide? I notice this when ending a reach and de powering the wing switch.

I think Iím too back footed in general when riding switch. My next board is going to have a lot more nose volume so I can keep the front foot heavy. Right now this board has too little volume in my opinion. Maybe a lot of boards do? I need to ride some other wing boards.

Solent Foiler

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #92 on: July 28, 2021, 06:36:05 AM »
... My next board is going to have a lot more nose volume so I can keep the front foot heavy. Right now this board has too little volume in my opinion. Maybe a lot of boards do? I need to ride some other wing boards.
It's an interesting point. In designing the Lethal I think Patrice moved the volume as far back as possible to keep it under the feet, so it's quite nose light. I've put my footstraps all the way back so that my front foot doesn't shove the nose under water when trying to get foiling and shloging around in the light. Can be really choppy where I am so a bit more stability is welcome as it's really tippy at volume=weight. Fortunately that hasn't upset the balance when foiling, and it hangs flat in the 'hang from the front foil' test

I'm sure I've seen a nose bulb on one new wing board recently - can't remember which...

On the nose rising when slowing down, [I am speculating here] but that's probably to do with the stab losing lift quicker than the front foil when approaching stall speed. If you were to design it the other way, the front foil would release first with zero chance of recovery, but if the stab goes first it increases the angle of attack on the main foil giving a few more moments to recover the situation... Could be that as you slow down you're trying to keep the nose up as lift is decreasing?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 06:54:44 AM by Solent Foiler »
I'm 5'10", 65kg riding:
Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
Gong Catch 5'3 34L
Gong Veloce L, XL and XXL, Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 100 monoblock mast
Duotone Slick 3m, 4m, 5m
[Gong Pulse - 4m, 5m Gong Superpower 6m]

Dontsink

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #93 on: July 28, 2021, 07:13:33 AM »
Lift of a given foil depends on Speed and Angle of Attack(AOA).
More Speed increases lift with same AOA.
More AOA increases lift with same Speed.

So if you are slowing down through the gybe it is normal that you require more AOA (nose up) to maintain height.

Bank angle is also a factor.Turning hard increases the load the foil has to carry,so you need more AOA to maintain height in a carve.

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2021, 08:04:19 AM »
Solent, thanks man. Good feedback that the nose thing may be more common than I was thinking. Iím still not 100% confident in my position on the board fore/aft. It feels good but I need some videos for you guys to review.

Dontsink, makes sense. One thing Iíd like to here more on though is that in my experience and a lot of folks, you generate more lift turning so I tend to have to fight the nose a bit. My prone buddies talk about this a lot.

I figure that as I slow down Iím unconsciously putting weight back to keep flying. Going to try to just keep the nose down and see where the glide gets me and see how that does. By the time Iím in that nose up position Iím barely moving so itís mellow.

Dontsink

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #95 on: July 28, 2021, 09:43:13 AM »
Solent, thanks man. Good feedback that the nose thing may be more common than I was thinking. Iím still not 100% confident in my position on the board fore/aft. It feels good but I need some videos for you guys to review.

Dontsink, makes sense. One thing Iíd like to here more on though is that in my experience and a lot of folks, you generate more lift turning so I tend to have to fight the nose a bit. My prone buddies talk about this a lot.

I figure that as I slow down Iím unconsciously putting weight back to keep flying. Going to try to just keep the nose down and see where the glide gets me and see how that does. By the time Iím in that nose up position Iím barely moving so itís mellow.

This is all IMHO of course:

If you keep the nose down on gybe exit you will glide on whatever mast height you have,until you touch down or put the power back in.
I would play with it because this can be more efficient than squeezing the AOA too close to stalling.Foils become very mushy/unstable at their low speed limit and require a bigger power surge to get going again vs loosing some mast height and maintaining speed a bit.

As for surffoiling turns:
(Waves are 3D, all angles and curves and power zones.Lots of energy in different forms,so best i can do is simplify the model to a carve in flat water,like releasing a tow rope and carving.)

A turn does not generate more lift or speed by itself.The foil is a lot draggier (higher AOA) when carving, in a "passive rider" turn we slow down or sink,period.
Just like an airplane flying straight and level,if you turn you either increase power,or loose speed,or loose height.

But most surfers will  enter a turn compressed and extend,slightly or a lot, through the carve.They add a "pump" into the turn.This adds energy into the equation and speed increases.

I think there are more factors involved in this "more lift" feel in a turn,like shifting our CG position as the trajectory changes (in most gliding sports we loose balance rearwards in turns) or how banking is going to bring the outside tip uncomfortably close to the surface (or breach it) so intuitively we feel high and want to sink the mast deeper.


PonoBill

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #96 on: July 28, 2021, 10:01:12 AM »
Gaining lift by increasing AOA is expensive and momentary--lots of drag. You'll slow rapidly, and speed IS lift, you're chasing a rapidly declining factor. Changes to AOA or any other factor change lift linearly. Changes to speed change lift exponentially. Boom--physics.

Keep the nose down, look where you want to go, bend your knees, go fast.

Of course, I still suck at this, but it's just my windsurfer mind dueling with wingfoiling reality.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

bigmtn

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #97 on: July 28, 2021, 12:55:59 PM »
As usual, thatís solid advice.

Question for the team. I notice that when I start to slow down my nose rises. Am I just unconsciously weighting the back foot? And if so, can I assume that I should just keep the hammer down and take the last bit of the glide? I notice this when ending a reach and de powering the wing switch.

I think Iím too back footed in general when riding switch. My next board is going to have a lot more nose volume so I can keep the front foot heavy. Right now this board has too little volume in my opinion. Maybe a lot of boards do? I need to ride some other wing boards.

simple, just don't slow down.  go faster. Real cowboys aint scared.

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #98 on: July 29, 2021, 08:27:37 AM »
Thx you three.

And yeah as I play this out in my mind I can feel what Iím doing. I think itís more unconscious than conscious. Gonna fight the urge and push forward and get used to feeling that last bit of glide. I know Iím wasting 6Ē to a foot of runway and thatís probably just enough to complete a jibe.

Headed to Catalina for 4 days and have a good forecast so Iíll be trying a lot of stuff. Gonna do a downwind drift or two and work on toe side and more serious S turns. I really think that is my next frontier since Iíll bet when that wing starts to power up toe side Iím putting weight back to counter it. I need to stay centered and pull toe side, not back to stay on the board. Iíll give a sport report as well.

radair

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #99 on: July 29, 2021, 05:53:25 PM »
I started winging in January after 6 months of wake foiling as much as possible. I went to Florida for about 6 weeks with the primary goal of coming home as a wing foiler. It worked! I do have a long way to go though. I wish I had found this thread last fall when I began the battle.

I agree that a great way to learn to gibe is to do a downwinder. While I still suck at gibing I have had success going slightly downwind to gain speed, focusing on a continuous foil turn (ignore the wing briefly to carve the board), look ahead (not at the wing) and using the wing to power through the end of the turn. For some reason this is way easier when youíre not trying to stay upwind.

Iím still a kook but more than happy to pay my dues to get proficient. Cheers

jrobmaui

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #100 on: August 05, 2021, 12:53:32 PM »
Hey -- I'm stuck in the phase of getting up on the foil but can't sustain flight.  Many failures are the classic stall and falling back.  In those cases I'm trying to apply front foot pressure and speed but it doesn't seem to work.  Have read the earlier tips and would appreciate any more ideas on getting out of this phase.

Thanks.


Pasquales

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #101 on: August 05, 2021, 02:11:12 PM »
I just passed the one year mark in my wing foil journey, and checked out the local spot yesterday on my lunch hour.  There are significantly more folks and beginners out in the water, so it's great seeing the scene grow. 

jrobmaui - Regarding your question about sustaining flight.  The simple answer  - Foiling in good wind (above 15 mph) makes staying on foil much easier.  When it is up and down, milking every gust becomes the norm to get up and keep flying.  If you are winging in good wind and still having this problem, it could be due to leaning too far back, and killing the initial power after popping up. It can also be due to leaning and turning the board too far upwind after getting on foil.  This can cause the foil to stall.  So good winds make it easier.  For average days, weight distribution is key.  Try leaning slightly forward when pumping.  When you come on to foil, begin to straighten your arms and body while keeping the wing slightly in front of you.  The pressure of the wing should pull you forward as you continue building speed on foil.  When you feel pressure in your wing, slowly start turning upwind.  One of the biggest mistake is turning too early.
 

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2021, 09:33:09 PM »
Jrob, yes Pasqualeís said it. If youíre in light wind that sounds about right. I was lucky and only got on foil on a really solid 15mph day. But when it was marginal I often would get that stall and fall thing. (Still do if itís super light.)

Give us some more info this board is full of good wingers.

bigmtn

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #103 on: August 06, 2021, 12:06:12 PM »
Hey -- I'm stuck in the phase of getting up on the foil but can't sustain flight.  Many failures are the classic stall and falling back.  In those cases I'm trying to apply front foot pressure and speed but it doesn't seem to work.  Have read the earlier tips and would appreciate any more ideas on getting out of this phase.

Thanks.

what foil are you on? weight etc
sounds like you're pumping up on foil before you have enough speed.  build a little more speed before you try to get up in the air. 

if the board comes up real easily, move the foil back a bit.

jrobmaui

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #104 on: August 06, 2021, 12:29:02 PM »
I'm 175 lbs + wetsuit, 125L Naish board, Infinity 84 2000 cm^2 wing, 71cm mast, 6m wing in 15 mph, very flat water. Have mast set dead center in track.  Several people including this thread advise no pumping for beginners so I've been trying that but one gets impatient.  Am old windsurfer, no foil or kite experience.

Something weird happened at the end of the last session.  Was slogging back to shore, needed a little turn downwind, and put in a *tiny* bit of yaw with feet and the board started to rise up in a really smooth, level, controlled manner.  Then shoreline intervened.  Baffling.

jrob
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 12:34:22 PM by jrobmaui »

 


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