Author Topic: Wing foil sessions - beginner  (Read 7753 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2020, 11:09:38 AM »
You light guys have it easier. I have to pump EVERYTHING to get up on smaller foils. One strand of grass, a screwy angle, or just getting tired of pumping and I'm stuck on the surface. The angle is critical for me, I doubt it will be for you, but basically I start off going slightly upwind to get some wing pressure, then turn gently to 90 degrees while pumping the wing like an injured chicken and sometimes a little past it to take advantage of swells and a little better pumping angle. But if you turn just a little too far downwind two bad things happen--your speed subtracts somewhat from the wind speed, and the wing winds up more in front of you, which is a shit angle for effective pumping.

I start off just pumping the wing until I get close to liftoff speed, then I start hopping up and down like a lunatic. I don't think my board pumping is all that effective, but unweighting the board lets it come up a bit, and any time you disconnect from the surface you accelerate. I often skip a few times before I get solidly up, but as long as I don't hit a lull I get up reliably.

I watch Admin pop up effortlessly with a dinky wing and a 760 foil and just hate his guts. 30 pounds of weight difference is a big deal.

Chan gets up in nothing with zero effort after traveling about four inches. Disgusting.

Incidentally, you don't really want smooth water. One of our launch areas (Stevenson) has a long stretch of smooth water, and I stick to it like I had no foil at all. Chop is your friend, and a nice, chunky boat wake can pop my board off the surface and into the low drag/high acceleration mode like I had a jato bottle. As soon as you can get speed up, coming smoothly up onto the foil is simple. At low speeds I have to increase my takeoff angle which often results in a foil stall--especially with the dinky 860.

« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 11:13:36 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2020, 08:26:40 PM »
Noted on the slight chop. I just donít need 2í wind chop slapping the nose.

You may have told me something critical about angle down wind. Iíd turn downwind and lose speed. Iím betting I went too far. I tried for 90į to wind but would get lost.

On the pump, Iím betting if I just get moving and hop once to ease drag Iíll go.

Admin

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2020, 04:01:29 AM »
Wind clock question. Iíve been trying to stay at 9pm (goofy, going heelside.) when you guys say I should turn a few degrees downwind to get flying what are yíall meaning on the clock? Iíd assume 8 but more?

Hi Cowboy, it is more like 8:45 or (3:15) if the wind is at 12:00.  It is pretty subtle but it helps a lot.  You will feel like your wing pumps translate more into forward motion and it will minimize the chop.  If you head too far downwind it will make it harder to gain speed and you will also start dragging your lower air wing tip.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 06:31:18 AM by Admin »

Phils

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2020, 06:40:46 AM »
Lots of good detailed advise here about wing pumping.   I usually wait to pump the board when it starts to feel light (getting some lift).  Not sure it matters at that point, but gives arms a break sooner.   I have also found that when the waves have some steepness, turning downwind and using the down ward angle of the water facilitates a quick liftoff as the water disappears from the bottom of your board.

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2020, 09:13:34 PM »
Mission Bay today. Not enough wind but it was fun to be out. Flat water walks of shame are so much easier. I just pushed the board upside down in front of me in 6Ē of water and pulled the foil behind.

The Robbie Naish waist deep method from his video seems way harder.

Not enough wind to get on foil (est around 10mph which might work when Iím good but not now) but I started to get how to angle the foil and hold some ground. Itís absurdly easy to schlog. People should buy those Slingshot stick on dagger boards. Iím thinking of putting one on my inflatable for my mother in law and nephews to use.

Now, letís see if I can get in the water before the wind dies tomorrow. But that nice lunch outside on the patio of the Catamaran Resort was probably needed more after half a year locked down in LA.

Must stop walking and paddling. Must stay upwind soon. But itís session 3 so Iíll chill out and hope for wind.

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2020, 08:13:56 PM »
Yup, itís the wind. I got on foil!!! Still not high wind but maybe 12-15 mph and more than enough for my light butt. Maybe 5 sec on foil and then over-foiled and bailed. Oh, now I know why wind wingers have their back feet in front of the masts.

Iím going to scoot forward tomorrow and see how that goes before I move the mast back. I slammed it forward like bigmtn said and yup, it worked.

One note for those who go behind me. When the wind gusts and itís cranking you can put it more overhead and it just pulls you up. I did this by mistake but a guy told me about this after and it makes sense.

Admin, yes, wait for it and then it just happens. A couple of pumps but mostly just the right conditions and direction. I am also learning all the ways to hold the wing and do different things. When is that YouTube video coming? No one really talks about angle of attack and fore/aft position and it makes a huge difference. Even that guy in the sailing mag said, that mostly they let people figure this stuff out lol. Letís move beyond that, right?

Tomorrow Iíll try to schlog upwind from the boat and out into the marina. But today I did a mini downwinder with my wife dropping me off maybe a quarter mile across this little bay and me running back and forth a couple of times before I lost ground and pulled into the marina. But itís a straight shot in to the boat so I just cruise in and pull right up to the back deck and step onboard. Great little working vacation. Iím loving being able to flat water paddle in am and then wing on my lunch break. I might not even drive to a surf break unless I get too tempted to try that smaller foil wing Iíve been sitting on.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 08:16:27 PM by surfcowboy »

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2020, 07:25:09 PM »
Today the wind was fully powered, the foil was back 3/4Ē in the box and it all came together for 2 solid foil runs. Not long but I brought one down on purpose and crashed out of one. Really good feeling.

Iím curious about starting in direct onshore winds. Am I right that thatís pretty hard and you just need to paddle out and get yourself some room to run along shore til you can angle up a bit?

Also, when schlogging I can make it up wind on toeside but not heelside. I figure thereís some trick but Iíve not sorted it. Since I can foil more and more on heelside I guess Iíll just deal lol. Hoping to get decent length runs by end of week. This lunch break wing session schedule is working well as I donít have time to get exhausted.

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2020, 02:20:57 AM »
Stoked Cowboy!  That is amazing progress. 

2400 is a very big foil at 130 lbs.  Awesome because it will pop you right up but possibly a little hard to tame when you are up and flying (particularly when you are more powered and in gusts).  This is a gift, it comes with a price.  :)  You are going to end up with both feet in front of the mast on that kit a lot of the time.  When you mention bringing the wing overhead to control gusts and feeling that uplift, that also has the side effect of taking some of your body weight off the foils.  When you really start overpowering this can feel very wild at first. 

It is likely best to put toeside riding aside for a while.  It will be much easier to learn to foil heelside in both directions and it is valuable to know that.  Riding toeside while schlogging is not a super valuable skill and you are better to schlog heelside in both directions.  You will point more easily and you will be set to foil up when your gust comes.

When you are foiling on these wingfoil setups you can point incredibly high into the wind.  Much higher than on windsurfing gear, etc.  That may take some sessions but even at first going a few degrees upwind may feel most stable and comfortable. 

The reason you don't hear many tips on body and wing positions for points of sail is that it is highly situational.   Like you mentioned you may need to be more overhead when overpowered.  You may be low and locked (more of a windsurfing position) when you are right in the wing's core wind range.  A generality is that when you shift the wing back (towards the tail of the board) you will point upwind.  Wing shifted forward towards the nose turns you downwind.  This is very three dimensional, though, and there are a lot of other subtleties that you will feel that will make that work. 

Keep doing what you are doing.  You are making great progress and each foiling reach is a tutorial in itself. 


« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 02:25:14 AM by Admin »

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2020, 06:59:16 AM »
Thx, and yes, each reach is so instructional. Iím really glad for my time in waves so I can be present when on foil and think clearly about whatís happening.

Sage advice about toe side and yes, after years of snowboarding, skating, and surfing without switch skills, Iím working on it. This sounds like a good plan.

As to trimming the foil, that 3/4Ē move back got me really in a nice place. But after trying my Curve M in the surf Iím for sure adding a smaller ďbigĒ wing and will use the XL Rise for teaching buddies or sell it off. Eventually Iíll start playing with high aspect Iím sure. (Nice thing about Gong, ~$250_$300 wings.)

Iíve got a few more days here. Daily sessions help for sure. And when Iím home Iím going to work out a shuttle with my wife and get a few miles under my belt.

I wonder if Apple knows how many iWatches offshore sports have sold? lol

ceej

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2020, 05:28:47 AM »
I've been enjoying reading your progress, surfcowboy. I was building my wing board around the same time as you and am on a similar wing foil learning curve so reading along with all your progress has been helpful and entertaining. Hoping I can hijack your thread a little bit with some technique questions of my own...

I am up to about session 10 or 11, and am able to get up on foil in both directions fairly consistently and zig zag across the lake. I am using a slingshot v2 6.4m wing and a slingshot 84cm sup foil. I'm 6'3 190lb.  I still need a fairly strong breeze to get going and I'm guessing the wind speed window can be lowered a lot with better technique.

I come from a surfing background, and have never been on foil before this. I found riding switch stance easier because I didn't have to overcome trying to ride the foil like it is a surfboard. I am still able to pump up onto foil a bit better in my normal surfing stance, but once on foil switch feels just as good as regular to me at this point.

Most of my questions are about holding the wing. My most comfortable position is with my front hand on the "transfer handle" that runs perpendicular to the boom and the forward most rear handle. This makes the wing easiest to control for me, but I am assuming just because that is what I have started with and have practiced the most with.

When I move my front hand back to the forward handle that is in line with the boom, should my palm be facing up or down? Would it ever change based on what I am doing?

Am i missing out on available power by not using the handles further back on my back hand?  Or am I just not able to point as high?

I've completed two non foiling jibes out of many attempts. My current sequence is to turn downwind, switch the wing in my hands and then switch my feet. I usually come off at the feet switching part. I think i just need practice here but would take any tips.


surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2020, 06:13:47 PM »
Ceej,

Thx for hopping in. I set these up so weíd create an easy way to track beginner issues and you are right on time.

Adminís comment about wing positions being relative made me think.

Iíll just add what little I know and congratulations on consistently getting on foil. Thatís my next short term goal on the water.

For me, on a swing with no transfer handle, Iíve had to learn to fly the wing a bit more I suspect. But the rear handle is my source of power. I rarely use the forward handle as I can feel the wing power up when I move my hand back. But, yes, control is an issue in the early stages. Keeping the front up and the tip out of the water is a huge challenge and causes most of my falls.

Iíd like to hear more about what I see as the three main positions (please guys add in if weíre missing some.

Low with strut/boom almost level like a wind surfer - I never use this for now.  Seems like only experienced folks do this?

Mid (shoulder high?) with the strut /boom at diagonal-  This is my main position I use.

Slightly overhead angled - this is my full power take off and get on foil position for right now but I can only do it when wind is at 15mph or so.

Overhead depowered with one hand- this would be the gybe position, though I get to this sometimes when the wind leaves and Iíve been in the slight overhead powered position.

For all of these I can do them with the front handle (not leading edge handle) and the second handle, but with less power than front and 3rd (back) handle. This tracks with all Iíve read and seen online.

There are really no videos on this and I get that admin is likely right, that itís so conditional. But it seems like we should start to define and discuss the most common ones so beginners have a path. I use what Iíve read here on the water all the time and try things out.

What do you guys think?

bigmtn

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2020, 07:18:08 PM »
F-One swing, I only use the front handle and furthest back of the 2 back handles. Leading edge handle I use if I'm fully depowered trying to ride a wave.  I only use the forward one of the 2back handles, middle handle, when I miss grab while doing a jibe... But I'm no expert, that's just what feels comfortable.

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2020, 08:13:33 PM »
This tracks with my experience as well. I only use it on my way to the back one if I miss it.

Admin

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2020, 01:41:31 AM »
There are really no videos on this and I get that admin is likely right, that itís so conditional. But it seems like we should start to define and discuss the most common ones so beginners have a path. I use what Iíve read here on the water all the time and try things out.

What do you guys think?

Hi Cowboy,

Shut me up if you already know this stuff but some of the beginner kiting stuff may help with wing position.  It is really the same for the wing minus the lines.  You are exposing the wing to the full force of the wind when it is locked and low.  As the wing changes position in that wind window you are spilling air to various degrees and lessen that power. 

When you are lightly powered it can be really helpful to lower the wing.  That is fast and efficient but it is also easier to catch wingtips there and you are the most exposed to gusts. You also have to be able to translate that power into forward speed or it will fling you.  Overhead and you are spilling most of your air.  That is pretty much for gusts, when you have become majorly overpowered, going downwind, etc.  As you can see in the image below, the wind window is fully 3 dimensional.  Where you have the wing positioned relative to your body and board is largely going to determine your point of sail.  You are also making subtle adjustments by sheeting in and out which allow those positions. 

On the Swings I use the front and back strut handles only.  I really hope that they extend those a little in V2.  An extra few inches of handle length would go a long way towards perfecting those wings.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 02:06:52 AM by Admin »

surfcowboy

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Re: Wing foil sessions - beginner
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2020, 01:00:29 PM »
No, no, keep it coming. This thread is for non wind folks so kite knowledge is appreciated.

That also tracks, the angle I mean, as the tip I got was to power up with pumps and when thereís a gust go a little higher to lighten the load on board.

As a beginner too Iím taking safety over full power as that tip drag is an instant fall. So Iíll play with this when I go out in a bit. Iíll have good 10-15mph today. Hoping I know enough now to pop up on foil earlier.

 


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