Unlimited vs 14 ft in Flat Water...Which is Faster?

[LoudounSUP]

I keep reading that unlimited boards are the fastest; however, they seem to always be geared towards open water racing. So my question to the group is which is faster in flat water conditions...a 'planing' unlimited board (i.e., SIC Bayonet) or a displacement 14' board (i.e., NSP Ninja, Starboard Sprint, SIC RS, etc.)?

[burchas]

There is a whole thread about it here: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,31183.msg342658.html#msg342658

Enjoy reading

[Area 10]

Most people would be faster on a 14ft RS in flat water than on a 17ft Bayonet. A really powerful paddler might be sble to make the Bayonet go faster, but the Bayonet weighs about 35% more than the RS, and has more rocker. Downwind ocean boards are designed to be used in the ocean, going downwind.

On the other hand  an unlimited RS would be usefully faster than a 14 in flat water, and IMO it is a great shame that there isn't one on general sale, because I wouid buy one. But racing has ironically created a situation where we all paddle slower than (probably) if racing had never existed.

[LoudounSUP]

Most people would be faster on a 14ft RS in flat water than on a 17ft Bayonet. A really powerful paddler might be sble to make the Bayonet go faster, but the Bayonet weighs about 35% more than the RS, and has more rocker. Downwind ocean boards are designed to be used in the ocean, going downwind.

On the other hand  an unlimited RS would be usefully faster than a 14 in flat water, and IMO it is a great shame that there isn't one on general sale, because I wouid buy one. But racing has ironically created a situation where we all paddle slower than (probably) if racing had never existed.

The 2020 Bayonet's are only 25.3 lbs according to the SIC website (which is a tad lighter than a 14x24.5" SIC RS).

[Area 10]

Most people would be faster on a 14ft RS in flat water than on a 17ft Bayonet. A really powerful paddler might be sble to make the Bayonet go faster, but the Bayonet weighs about 35% more than the RS, and has more rocker. Downwind ocean boards are designed to be used in the ocean, going downwind.

On the other hand  an unlimited RS would be usefully faster than a 14 in flat water, and IMO it is a great shame that there isn't one on general sale, because I wouid buy one. But racing has ironically created a situation where we all paddle slower than (probably) if racing had never existed.

The 2020 Bayonet's are only 25.3 lbs according to the SIC website (which is a tad lighter than a 14x24.5" SIC RS).

No, I think that is a printing error.

[PonoBill]

Hard to say if it's a printing error. It's certainly feasible to make a 17' that's lighter than a 14'. It all depends on the construction method. My 17' hollow carbon/Kevlar Bullet 17 weighed 19 pounds when I picked it up from Maui SIC. Of course the first time I fell on it I cracked it with my knee, so that was the last lightweight board Mark ever made for me. But I remember one Maliko race I was standing in the gulch holding my board talking with Connor and Zane and they both said "what does that board weigh--you're carrying it like it's nothing".

But yeah, you might be right.

The simple answer to the original poster's question is that it depends on the paddler and the board design. Any paddler that can push a 14' to more than 6 mph would be faster on an unlimited. If you can't do that, then save your money and stick with 14'. Unlimited boards are not automatically faster, but if you can overcome their intrinsically higher skin friction the Froude "limit" is higher, so you can probably go faster.

[Area 10]

It is certainly possible that the 17ft 2020 Bayonet is 25lbs - making it something like 9lbs lighter than the 2019 one - since the factory is different now, and the construction too. The 2020 Bayonet 17 construction is only a single layer of carbon plus one of glass in most places, with PVC and carbon reinforcement in the srandinh area and three layers of carbon on the rails. It is NOT full PVC sandwich all over, unlike the 2020 RS, and the lack of PVC will sane quite a but of weight. What will add weight though is the steering mechanism and plumbing. Plus the 17ft is around 350L, and the deck pad will be longer etc.

I would worry about the durabiliry of a 17ft downwind board that is only a single layer of carbon and that it it. The 2019 RS boards were a similar layup and some racers complained that the skin could puncture when hit hard by paddles, knees etc in the heat of battle when turning buoys. Long downwind boards tend to take a beating in use.

But yes, because the 2020 17ft Bayonet is not much more than a big piece of foam, it might be lighter than the full PVC sandwich 14ft RS, despite the increase in volume of around
20%. This would be unlike previous years when the UL boards have been very substantially heavier than the 14s.

That would indeed make a difference in terms of flatwater speed if you are a very powerful paddler.

I used to have a Naish 17ft board. In flatwater if I really dug deep I could get faster times on that than on my SIC X14 raceboard, which was wider. But when I put my friend, who is lighter than me and more inclined to cruise rather than beast himself, on the 17ft he was the slowest he has ever been - he was slower on the 17 than he was on a 12-6 flat water board that was 3" wider!

So, yes, it probably depends on the paddler as to whether they would be faster on the 25" wide 2020 17ft Bayonet than the 14x24.5 2020 RS. There may be just about enough extra waterline on the 17, despite the extra rocker and surface area,  to make the hull speed faster - if you have the power and technique to get it there. Most people probably don't,  at least not over a significant distance. Which is what I said originally.

[PonoBill]

This is an ancient issue that I beat the drum over perhaps ten years ago when longer boards generally disappeared because of the goofy 14'/12'6" racing "rules". Standardizing on 14' boards for racing literally cost the manufacturers half their available market, since the practical limit for anyone to be competitive given a comparable level of fitness and technique is 190 pounds, and everyone in the lead pack in any serious race is probably under 170. The greater muscle mass of a bigger paddler can push longer boards to higher speeds and at least keep them in sight of the lead pack. They still won't win consistently, the mathematics for the performance of human-powered watercraft are well known (as reflected here for example:http://eodg.atm.ox.ac.uk/user/dudhia/rowing/physics/weight.html#section7), and drag from added weight increases faster than power from more muscle, and added weight is never just more muscle that can be directly used to go faster. But racing with a board that suits your body beats the hell out of bringing up the rear on a 14' board that feels like it's towing a sea anchor.

It's an issue that's even more obvious in women's racing, where competitors are generally limited to 12'6".

All that stuff is just blah, blah since racing rules are now ossified and don't mean much anyway. The market for racing boards is too small to care about. 

[LoudounSUP]

This is an ancient issue that I beat the drum over perhaps ten years ago when longer boards generally disappeared because of the goofy 14'/12'6" racing "rules". Standardizing on 14' boards for racing literally cost the manufacturers half their available market, since the practical limit for anyone to be competitive given a comparable level of fitness and technique is 190 pounds, and everyone in the lead pack in any serious race is probably under 170. The greater muscle mass of a bigger paddler can push longer boards to higher speeds and at least keep them in sight of the lead pack. They still won't win consistently, the mathematics for the performance of human-powered watercraft are well known (as reflected here for example:http://eodg.atm.ox.ac.uk/user/dudhia/rowing/physics/weight.html#section7), and drag from added weight increases faster than power from more muscle, and added weight is never just more muscle that can be directly used to go faster. But racing with a board that suits your body beats the hell out of bringing up the rear on a 14' board that feels like it's towing a sea anchor.

It's an issue that's even more obvious in women's racing, where competitors are generally limited to 12'6".

All that stuff is just blah, blah since racing rules are now ossified and don't mean much anyway. The market for racing boards is too small to care about.

Then why are all elite rowers 6'5" and 210+ pounds?

[TallDude]

Very few big guy elite anythings. Put any elite racer any size on a racing flat water unlimited in a 10 mile race, and they will be faster then they would on a 14'. Add a bunch of buoy turns and in and out of the surf, the unlimited will get beat by everyone.

[PonoBill]

This is an ancient issue that I beat the drum over perhaps ten years ago when longer boards generally disappeared because of the goofy 14'/12'6" racing "rules". Standardizing on 14' boards for racing literally cost the manufacturers half their available market, since the practical limit for anyone to be competitive given a comparable level of fitness and technique is 190 pounds, and everyone in the lead pack in any serious race is probably under 170. The greater muscle mass of a bigger paddler can push longer boards to higher speeds and at least keep them in sight of the lead pack. They still won't win consistently, the mathematics for the performance of human-powered watercraft are well known (as reflected here for example:http://eodg.atm.ox.ac.uk/user/dudhia/rowing/physics/weight.html#section7), and drag from added weight increases faster than power from more muscle, and added weight is never just more muscle that can be directly used to go faster. But racing with a board that suits your body beats the hell out of bringing up the rear on a 14' board that feels like it's towing a sea anchor.

It's an issue that's even more obvious in women's racing, where competitors are generally limited to 12'6".

All that stuff is just blah, blah since racing rules are now ossified and don't mean much anyway. The market for racing boards is too small to care about.

Then why are all elite rowers 6'5" and 210+ pounds?

Probably full core and leg muscle engagement, but I don't know. And I don't know whether or not that's true. And as i recall a single scull is about 30 feet long.

[Area 10]

Its all about power to weight and balance, and the reason why gymnasts are so small (plus the nature of our races and the equipment, each of which has emerged out of surf/boardsports culture, not rowing/sailing culture).

An elite rower who had competed successfully at international level once told me that he was too small to be ideal for rowing, but too big to be ideal for SUP.

[LoudounSUP]

Its all about power to weight and balance, and the reason why gymnasts are so small (plus the nature of our races and the equipment, each of which has emerged out of surf/boardsports culture, not rowing/sailing culture).

An elite rower who had competed successfully at international level once told me that he was too small to be ideal for rowing, but too big to be ideal for SUP.

Haha, I hear you on this. I'm kinda in the same 'boat' (pun intended). I'm 192cm and 83kg. I did notice that in the 2019 SUP World Championships, Sebastian Brendel (3x gold medalist C1 canoe) was a ways off the top guys in both the long distance and sprint races. In the long distance race he was ~ 9 mins. behind the winner (Booth) and in the sprint he was 8 seconds behind Connor Baxter. I mean overall he did great in all the races with high finishes in the long (15th) and sprint (12th) events but still a ways off the top guys.

[Area 10]

Its all about power to weight and balance, and the reason why gymnasts are so small (plus the nature of our races and the equipment, each of which has emerged out of surf/boardsports culture, not rowing/sailing culture).

An elite rower who had competed successfully at international level once told me that he was too small to be ideal for rowing, but too big to be ideal for SUP.

Haha, I hear you on this. I'm kinda in the same 'boat' (pun intended). I'm 192cm and 83kg. I did notice that in the 2019 SUP World Championships, Sebastian Brendel (3x gold medalist C1 canoe) was a ways off the top guys in both the long distance and sprint races. In the long distance race he was ~ 9 mins. behind the winner (Booth) and in the sprint he was 8 seconds behind Connor Baxter. I mean overall he did great in all the races with high finishes in the long (15th) and sprint (12th) events but still a ways off the top guys.

Yeah, several times now the top guys from other paddlesports have tried their hand against the elite SUP racers. Because the training of SUP racers is extremely amateurish compared to something like rowing, and there is little formal technique coaching in SUP, these outsiders have generally expected to show the ramshackle and largely self-taught SUP elite a thing or two. But mostly they have instead got their asses kicked. These kids who have grown up doing their own thing having fun in the ocean all day are pretty darned fit and are superb athletes whether they train like Olympic rowers or not.

[Area 10]

Incidentally, if the 2020 Bayonet really does weigh less than the 2020 RS 14x24.5 then I might actually prefer to paddke the Bayonet in flat water, even though I'm not a big guy. The longer boards are more stable for their width and  paddling an UL feels more special. But since you can't race an UL that would be one downside - but my days of racing are behind me anyway- been there, done that: too much drama, commitment and expense.