Author Topic: Gong Veloce XL review  (Read 3675 times)

obxDave

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2020, 11:58:59 PM »
Moses 82cm surf mast comes in at 1.35 cm and a cord of 11.6 cm at the wet end

Dave, you have the old Moses mast.

I have the new stiff one. Mine is 1.85 cm thick!

What length Moses mast do you have? Are you sure youíre not describing the C40 72cm surf mast?

The new thicker high stiffness Moses surf masts made for big wings are 82cm and 72cm. They have numerous different kite mast lengths (all thinner), but they never had older versions of the 72 or 82 as far as l know.  I know the 72cm comes in two constructions, 100% carbon and a glass/carbon hybrid that goes by the model # C40.  The hybrid model is just as stiff, but less expensive and thicker. As far as I know the 82cm is only made in full carbon. I had the Moses 71cm kite mast (very skinny but way too spongy for the W1100) so I sold it and bought the 72cm full carbon along with the 82cm. Of course I am pretty senile, so I could be missing something :P
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 12:01:47 AM by obxDave »

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2020, 01:43:41 AM »
Good to know Admin, thanks!
Must make some difference, just not sure how much.

I think it is very noticable.  Basically a third of a cm or so across a foot and a half of wetted mast.  It feels like an aggregate drag reduction from the minimization of each component.   This along with less draggy tails allows smaller, faster, funner foils and air wings in lighter winds and through the holes.  Stall speed improves a lot even on foils that seem kind of impossible.  I think we are at the chopping off hunks phase.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2020, 03:34:04 AM »
Dave, mine is the 82cm....it was $2000 standard kit for the W1100 came with 483 tail. the older version came with the 450 tail.

I measured the mast, not the Tuttle head. Go up into the airfoil part, just past the ďblend to headĒ to get true mast thickness. Mine is 18.5mm at the wet end and it tapers to the board end at 19mm then goes really thick. Mine is super stiff. Like Axis stiff. And light.

I didnít even know they had an old and new version until someone in Miami, connected to the former importer, told me there is a new stiff version. Thatís when I knew I had one. It also helped explain why Admin told me the Moses he played with in the Gorge, was very flexible and twisty.

Typical Moses, they are always changing things.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 03:35:51 AM by Dwight (DW) »

obxDave

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2020, 05:56:33 AM »
Dave, mine is the 82cm....it was $2000 standard kit for the W1100 came with 483 tail. the older version came with the 450 tail.

I measured the mast, not the Tuttle head. Go up into the airfoil part, just past the ďblend to headĒ to get true mast thickness. Mine is 18.5mm at the wet end and it tapers to the board end at 19mm then goes really thick. Mine is super stiff. Like Axis stiff. And light.

I didnít even know they had an old and new version until someone in Miami, connected to the former importer, told me there is a new stiff version. Thatís when I knew I had one. It also helped explain why Admin told me the Moses he played with in the Gorge, was very flexible and twisty.

Typical Moses, they are always changing things.

Yep, youíre right! I get 17 mm at 3 1/2 inches above the Tuttle and my calipers might be missing the last mm.  Oh well, so much for significant cross section reduction going from Axis to Moses. The Moses 82cm weighs in at 3lb7oz while the 75cm Axis is 4lb12oz, so some weight savings, but weight is not critical since Iím strapless and not jumping.   Either way mast stiffness is a way bigger priority for me over top speed.

Speaking of which (on the subject of Gong foils);

Despite the rubber mallet mounting-unmounting hassle I always liked the GoFoil tapered shaft approach for the front wing. Super snug fit with just one tiny set screw. The Gong straight shafts are always a wee bit loose so they make up for it with 3 set screws, 2 bottom, one top. If those screws ever loosen up while riding ( it does occasionally happen) I feel it instantly. Whether itís a loose wing connection or spongy mast, doesnít matter, same crappy result. Oh well, nothings perfect.

One quick addition, to add to my insanity I just got the VeloceXLís big brother and will be trying it out as soon as my right hand is working again. Canít possibly imagine it will be as carvy as the XL but it should be a pumping maniac...

obxDave

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2020, 06:09:03 AM »
Then again I could rig the 3.3., break the 5mph speed limit rule, ignore the swollen hand, and test out the new wing behind the house in the remnants of the tropical storm passing west of us........NOT!

cnski

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2020, 08:08:38 AM »
The older moses masts were noodles for a "carbon" mast. Just because someone comes out with a carbon mast doesn't mean it's going to be any good. Mike Zajicek(Mike's Lab) didn't get approved for the next cycle of IKA registration (kitefoil racing Olympic organizing body) because he refused to divulge his trade secrets for his mast construction. He has put in an enormous amount of work developing a stiff carbon mast. And even with his masts there are good and bad ones. The top kitefoil racers in the world will order 10 masts and they will keep 1 or 2 then sell the rest. I'm sure my ML mast was a noodle reject but is still amazing for my purposes. I've done deflection tests with Delta George on ML and Delta kitefoil masts. George's masts are damn close to a ML mast. He uses UHM carbon for the stiffness. He recycled a race mast and cut it down from 110cm to 80cm and bonded it to the baseplate and fuselage for me for an ultrastiff freeride kitefoil setup which is hands down better than his aluminum mast in terms of feel and speed. It is incredibly light too. He now has a 2 new HA wingfoil wings a 1250 and 1480 which look awesome. I'm begging him to make a bigger one for my 110kg's.

Solent Foiler

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2020, 12:03:47 PM »
Nice feedback oxbDave. I FINALLY got all the bits for my XL and L Veloce and my initial impressions are very similar to yours. I got the 100cm carbon monoblock mast as well which I'm also dialing into but the XL is actually less intimidating and much more manoeuvrable than I was expecting (coming from a smallish, low aspect surf foil). In fact, the main reason I got the L as well was because I was expecting to need something smaller and more manoeuvrable and although I'm sure it will have a place (not ridden it yet!), the XL is more than just a lighter wind option. Indeed I'm tempted by the XXL as a proper lighter wind option given how impressive the XL is.

The other thing that struck me, apart from the glide and speed, which are awesome, is the take off. It definitely needs more finesse and stalls quite easily when down speed if you're too aggressive with your front foot, but when powered up it serenely elevates you up rather than stepping up that the more 'surfy' foils do.

Will feedback more when I break out the Veloce L as a comparison...
I'm 5'10", 65kg riding:
Gong Flint 5'6 95L
Gong Catch 5'3 34L
Gong Veloce L and XL on 100 monoblock mast
Gong Pulse - 4m, 5m
Gong Superpower 6m

obxDave

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2020, 11:30:26 PM »
The older moses masts were noodles for a "carbon" mast. Just because someone comes out with a carbon mast doesn't mean it's going to be any good. Mike Zajicek(Mike's Lab) didn't get approved for the next cycle of IKA registration (kitefoil racing Olympic organizing body) because he refused to divulge his trade secrets for his mast construction. He has put in an enormous amount of work developing a stiff carbon mast. And even with his masts there are good and bad ones. The top kitefoil racers in the world will order 10 masts and they will keep 1 or 2 then sell the rest. I'm sure my ML mast was a noodle reject but is still amazing for my purposes. I've done deflection tests with Delta George on ML and Delta kitefoil masts. George's masts are damn close to a ML mast. He uses UHM carbon for the stiffness. He recycled a race mast and cut it down from 110cm to 80cm and bonded it to the baseplate and fuselage for me for an ultrastiff freeride kitefoil setup which is hands down better than his aluminum mast in terms of feel and speed. It is incredibly light too. He now has a 2 new HA wingfoil wings a 1250 and 1480 which look awesome. I'm begging him to make a bigger one for my 110kg's.

My 71cm Moses kite mast always seemed completely stiff enough for that smallish 633 front wing for recreational kitefoiling, but racing would be a whole different world. With the 1100 attached it just started flexing right away, hence the switch to the fatter 72cm surf mast. I guess Moses solution was the bigger hammer approach of just adding more carbon fabric layers versus ML with a much more  techy (and expensive) design/materials approach, as youíd expect for foil racing. With  all these big front wings coming out Iím sure weíll see more technical effort at stiffer/lighter/thinner for masts sold to the average Joe/Jane

Nice feedback oxbDave. I FINALLY got all the bits for my XL and L Veloce and my initial impressions are very similar to yours. I got the 100cm carbon monoblock mast as well which I'm also dialing into but the XL is actually less intimidating and much more manoeuvrable than I was expecting (coming from a smallish, low aspect surf foil). In fact, the main reason I got the L as well was because I was expecting to need something smaller and more manoeuvrable and although I'm sure it will have a place (not ridden it yet!), the XL is more than just a lighter wind option. Indeed I'm tempted by the XXL as a proper lighter wind option given how impressive the XL is.

The other thing that struck me, apart from the glide and speed, which are awesome, is the take off. It definitely needs more finesse and stalls quite easily when down speed if you're too aggressive with your front foot, but when powered up it serenely elevates you up rather than stepping up that the more 'surfy' foils do.

Will feedback more when I break out the Veloce L as a comparison...


I guess between your L and my XXL we have a big chunk of the Veloce range covered. I could see the L being really nice for kite foiling. Iím definitely interested to hear more about the Gong mono block masts as well. Iíve been resisting them thinking I want one set of masts for both kite and wing foiling, but maybe itís time to give up on that. Just wish Gong had an 85cm size between the 70 and 100.....
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 11:38:16 PM by obxDave »

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2020, 02:22:27 AM »
He now has a 2 new HA wingfoil wings a 1250 and 1480 which look awesome.

Do you have a link to those?  Interested to see his direction.

Solent Foiler

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2020, 10:03:34 AM »

...Iím definitely interested to hear more about the Gong mono block masts as well. Iíve been resisting them thinking I want one set of masts for both kite and wing foiling, but maybe itís time to give up on that. Just wish Gong had an 85cm size between the 70 and 100.....

I was on an 85cm Naish alu mast before the monoblock and my initial impressions on that are that I like it, but it's not blowing my mind. I know that sounds like damning with faint praise but it's not meant to be - I think I had too high expectations.

It's very well made and certainly seems stiff - I can't feel any unwanted flex or movement when foiling. My local spot gets really crappy, steep chop with cross and back chop from shipping and bouncing off sea walls and I was hoping the 100 length would totally isolate me from that noise. It does more than the 85 but not as much as I was hoping for. That's partly down to using a much wider foil - the XL Veloce is 94cm and the Naish Thrust L 66cm, so when leaning over going upwind I still need to be mindful of cavitating, although the Veloce is MUCH more tolerant at a tip poking out than the Thrust. Basically using a wider foil means I can't bury the foil deeper to isolate myself from the chop, so not really a criticism of the mast! Perhaps the slightly narrower L will be better.

I can feel the extra buoyancy from the monoblock as well, but it's only apparent when not foiling obviously. I imagine it will help a tiny bit in getting going but can't say for sure given I haven't done a back to back test using the same foil on a different mast. Having said that, I'm just about to pick up a Gong fuse that I've got machined to accept the Naish mast, so will be able to do that test soon.

Finally, you can't get away from the fact that longer masts moves you further away from the foil, so you lose a little of that 'direct connection' with what's going on under water. And the only other slight bug is that it's not a quick release system on the base, but as I don't really connect / disconnect the mast at the beach, that's hardly an issue for me.

Will feedback when I used the Veloce L! (sounds familiar!)
I'm 5'10", 65kg riding:
Gong Flint 5'6 95L
Gong Catch 5'3 34L
Gong Veloce L and XL on 100 monoblock mast
Gong Pulse - 4m, 5m
Gong Superpower 6m

obxDave

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2020, 12:27:31 PM »

...Iím definitely interested to hear more about the Gong mono block masts as well. Iíve been resisting them thinking I want one set of masts for both kite and wing foiling, but maybe itís time to give up on that. Just wish Gong had an 85cm size between the 70 and 100.....

I was on an 85cm Naish alu mast before the monoblock and my initial impressions on that are that I like it, but it's not blowing my mind. I know that sounds like damning with faint praise but it's not meant to be - I think I had too high expectations.

It's very well made and certainly seems stiff - I can't feel any unwanted flex or movement when foiling. My local spot gets really crappy, steep chop with cross and back chop from shipping and bouncing off sea walls and I was hoping the 100 length would totally isolate me from that noise. It does more than the 85 but not as much as I was hoping for. That's partly down to using a much wider foil - the XL Veloce is 94cm and the Naish Thrust L 66cm, so when leaning over going upwind I still need to be mindful of cavitating, although the Veloce is MUCH more tolerant at a tip poking out than the Thrust. Basically using a wider foil means I can't bury the foil deeper to isolate myself from the chop, so not really a criticism of the mast! Perhaps the slightly narrower L will be better.

I can feel the extra buoyancy from the monoblock as well, but it's only apparent when not foiling obviously. I imagine it will help a tiny bit in getting going but can't say for sure given I haven't done a back to back test using the same foil on a different mast. Having said that, I'm just about to pick up a Gong fuse that I've got machined to accept the Naish mast, so will be able to do that test soon.

Finally, you can't get away from the fact that longer masts moves you further away from the foil, so you lose a little of that 'direct connection' with what's going on under water. And the only other slight bug is that it's not a quick release system on the base, but as I don't really connect / disconnect the mast at the beach, that's hardly an issue for me.

Will feedback when I used the Veloce L! (sounds familiar!)
Thanks for the great  input! I just need to decide between Gong-to-Moses mast adapter or the Gong Monobloc. Almost a coin toss in the end...

Fishman

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2020, 04:27:28 PM »

...Iím definitely interested to hear more about the Gong mono block masts as well. Iíve been resisting them thinking I want one set of masts for both kite and wing foiling, but maybe itís time to give up on that. Just wish Gong had an 85cm size between the 70 and 100.....

I was on an 85cm Naish alu mast before the monoblock and my initial impressions on that are that I like it, but it's not blowing my mind. I know that sounds like damning with faint praise but it's not meant to be - I think I had too high expectations.

It's very well made and certainly seems stiff - I can't feel any unwanted flex or movement when foiling. My local spot gets really crappy, steep chop with cross and back chop from shipping and bouncing off sea walls and I was hoping the 100 length would totally isolate me from that noise. It does more than the 85 but not as much as I was hoping for. That's partly down to using a much wider foil - the XL Veloce is 94cm and the Naish Thrust L 66cm, so when leaning over going upwind I still need to be mindful of cavitating, although the Veloce is MUCH more tolerant at a tip poking out than the Thrust. Basically using a wider foil means I can't bury the foil deeper to isolate myself from the chop, so not really a criticism of the mast! Perhaps the slightly narrower L will be better.

I can feel the extra buoyancy from the monoblock as well, but it's only apparent when not foiling obviously. I imagine it will help a tiny bit in getting going but can't say for sure given I haven't done a back to back test using the same foil on a different mast. Having said that, I'm just about to pick up a Gong fuse that I've got machined to accept the Naish mast, so will be able to do that test soon.

Finally, you can't get away from the fact that longer masts moves you further away from the foil, so you lose a little of that 'direct connection' with what's going on under water. And the only other slight bug is that it's not a quick release system on the base, but as I don't really connect / disconnect the mast at the beach, that's hardly an issue for me.

Will feedback when I used the Veloce L! (sounds familiar!)
If i understand you correctly you were using the Naish 85cm mast with the Gong fuselage and wing.

Are you using the new high dollar Naish mast or the older style?
Did you have any fitting issues using that mast?
And if it was the older style Naish mast was it much better than the Gong alu mast?
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Solent Foiler

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2020, 08:27:19 AM »
If i understand you correctly you were using the Naish 85cm mast with the Gong fuselage and wing.

Are you using the new high dollar Naish mast or the older style?
Did you have any fitting issues using that mast?
And if it was the older style Naish mast was it much better than the Gong alu mast?

Hi Fishman - Sorry I'm going to be of limited help here! Was using the 2020 spec Naish 85cm mast with the Thrust foil, while I waited for the Gong kit to arrive - a temporary stop gap that ended up being longer than expected but that's another story. I've only used the Veloce XL on the monoblock mast, but I do have a Gong fuse machined to accept the Naish mast. I wanted the option to use the Abracadabra system for the winter when fiddling with small parts with claw hands is a complete PITA.... Some have criticised the Abracadabra, but I've not had any flex/movement issues with it although I might have more perspective when I go back to it! I didn't even order a Gong alu mast.
I'm 5'10", 65kg riding:
Gong Flint 5'6 95L
Gong Catch 5'3 34L
Gong Veloce L and XL on 100 monoblock mast
Gong Pulse - 4m, 5m
Gong Superpower 6m

Fishman

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2020, 09:09:55 PM »
Thanks for explaining. I'm always curious with this stuff.
I considered making abracadabra work on my gear, it certainly is appealing to me
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Thatspec

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Re: Gong Veloce XL review
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2020, 08:21:10 AM »
Veloces and V-stabs are back up and available to 'pre-order' again for Oct. 5th, at least in the larger sizes. It was just waitlist there for a while. Hoping to give downwind sup foiling another go (that wing is soooo in the way), so ordered up an XL, XXL, and 43 stab. Also ordered a 5-8 Flint board. Still a waitlist for the 70cm carbon mast.

I heard rumour that there may be an axis 130cm glide series wing like the 1010, 1150, etc. That's probably overkill even for me near 200#. The 1010 continues to blow me away with it's neverending glide and feeling pretty confident it's plenty for downwind suping.
It sounds like the XL Veloce will be pretty comparable with the 2XL pretty much guaranteeing success. Cheap enough experiment regardless.

Shipping to Wiesbaden DE for two wings and a stab.... 16 euro ::)
Now... how to get there from the US.

 


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