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Author Topic: Advanced Beginner Advice  (Read 1324 times)

Beasho

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Advanced Beginner Advice
« on: July 16, 2020, 05:32:22 AM »
I officially have 2 sessions and have leaped to “Advanced Beginner.”  Need advice.

Session 1: Started 15 to 20 mph for 45 minutes. Slingshot 6.4 V2, 6’6” Easy Foiler, GoFoil Maliko 200.  Wind Picked up: 20 to 30+ for 1 hour.  Duotone 5.0, 6’6” Easy Foiler, GoFoil GL210.  Was crushing it then got crushed.

Session 2: 12 to 20 mph for 2 hours.  Slingshot 6.4 V2, 6’6” Easy Foiler, GoFoil Maliko 200.  Gliding Bliss! (see below)

Plenty of Observations and Questions:

•   More wind is better until it gets over 25 mph
•   Bigger Foils are better M200 flew great never felt too slow GL210 was like riding a sinking windsurfer aka I need more experience
•   My knees got all bloodied up.  I need to go from knees to standing almost instantly to avoid this
•   I am switching my feet and using footstraps I can’t even comprehend how to sail back side but as a windsurfer I am good with this
•   I can now easily get up and fly goofy foot which is my surfing stance on starboard tack.  I can even bear off in low wind and pump on to foil, in my mind I am flying like Piros. 
•   Flying on Port tack is learning to foil all over again.  Hunching over bending my knees rearing up and breaching.  I have to think hard to keep the nose down.  Control is coming oddly from my back foot.  All terrifying and fun
•   10 to 12 mph – No way.  This results in a 30-degree downwind angle.  Make sure there is an easy place to walk home from
•   Going up wind, with enough wind, is NO PROBLEM.  Way better upwind ability than a planing windsurfer.
•   Check the gear – Specifically the tag attached to wrist leash.  When it started gusting to 30+ my 5.0 Duotone was porpoising out of control.  Up, Down, Up, Down then SNAP it went flying.  1st day on the new toy and the wind ripped it away.  Fortunately I was upwind of a neighborhood and the wing went flying towards shore and smashed off some rocks and settled down.  I got away with 2 small tears in the wing, retied and kept flying. 

Questions:
•   What next?
•   Any advice for foiling on weak side?  I have convinced myself this will just take time
•   Jibing on foil – No Fragging way.  Please Advise!
I am trying to become a professional beginner FAST
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 05:37:55 AM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Advanced Beginner
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2020, 05:32:50 AM »
Experience:
  • 35 years Advance Windsurfer: Could Wave Sail anywhere in the world Davenport, CA, Hookipa, The Gorge could forward loop . . Experienced ALL the good and bad windsurfing can throw at you. 
  • 3.5 years Advanced Foil SUP’r riding everything small and big.  2 years in straps.  Can power up and take off on tiny waves, can’t flat water start until I lose 20 lbs hah! 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 05:37:07 AM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2020, 06:01:58 AM »
Day 1 Winging on the 5.0 Duotone Starboard looked like this:

https://youtu.be/obEBStD-QTs

Winging Port more abusive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d__1UFAzuQo
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 06:06:13 AM by Beasho »

Phils

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2020, 06:25:38 AM »
Amazing first sessions.  All your previous experience clearly in play.  Lot to discuss here but I would suggest you consider not using straps for a while.  You will want to ride toeside (backside?) and it is much easier to learn without straps.  Also, the easiest way to learn to switch feet on foil is by doing it first from a very narrow stance...again easier without straps.

Admin

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2020, 06:32:10 AM »
It is awesome to see you on the wing Beasho!

You are going to be your own best coach for a lot of this stuff.  Crazy how offside will fight you even though your mind and body fully knows what to do.  A few weeks will change this a lot and offside may end up feeling stronger than onside.  Wonder what that will do for your other foiling! 

Knees and toes.  Some boards have a little grit in their pads.  That can hamburger you when you are down a lot.  Once you have no skin it takes a while to heal up and callous.  After a year you will have hooker knees (what?).

You are off!

Thatspec

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2020, 07:13:11 AM »
Looking good there Beasho!
Looking back at how I could have improved my progression I would have spent more time riding on my weak side and learning to switch feet smoothly early on. I would also have gone to a harness as soon as I was up and riding. For just reaching back and forth hooking in will get you better performance out of your wing and double the length of your sessions. It'll feel completely natural coming from a WS background. Downwinding I never hook in but the harness is still great back support.

Jibing... just let that foil glide, a pump or two may even be helpful. The GL 210 should also help in that regard giving you more time to get back to power. Picking your patch of water so you're going downhill on exit. All the same stuff from WS.

Solent Foiler

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2020, 07:59:14 AM »
I gybe similar to how I did WS -  back foot over to the rail, drive through the inside hip, look through the turn...

Winging needs more core stability I think to stop you being thrown off balance by the wing, and learning how to manage the wing mid gybe just needs experience.

For example, in lighter winds when apparent wind goes close to zero mid gybe, I have to give it a little push to the new side with my back hand just to get it to move over or I hold on with both hands and wait until the wind fills in from behind again and do immediate hand switch.

As per WS, gybing in wind / gust makes it easier...
I'm 5'10", 65kg riding:
Gong Flint 5'6 95L
Gong Catch 5'3 34L
Naish Thrust L
Gong Pulse - 4m, 5m
Gong Superpower 6m

liv2surf

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2020, 08:12:37 AM »
Day 1 Winging on the 5.0 Duotone Starboard looked like this:

https://youtu.be/obEBStD-QTs

Winging Port more abusive:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d__1UFAzuQo

Beautiful spot. Did you see any other wingers?
9'6" CRUZ Surf foil SUP (152L)
5'4" Slingshot Slingwing v2; 4m Cabrinha Crosswing
Axis 1020; 65cm Project Cedrus carbon mast
6'6" CRUZ 'CIM' Foil SUP (130L)
Chinook Thrust 92 Paddle -- fixed 78" length
Me: 185 lbs, 64 yo Half Moon Bay, CA

liv2surf

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2020, 08:19:21 AM »
It is awesome to see you on the wing Beasho!

You are going to be your own best coach for a lot of this stuff.  Crazy how offside will fight you even though your mind and body fully knows what to do.  A few weeks will change this a lot and offside may end up feeling stronger than onside.  Wonder what that will do for your other foiling! 

Knees and toes.  Some boards have a little grit in their pads.  That can hamburger you when you are down a lot.  Once you have no skin it takes a while to heal up and callous.  After a year you will have hooker knees (what?).

You are off!

Agreed, really good start. When you get home you will be in a full suit so no problem with knees. Most wear booties here as well, so no problem with feet getting chewed up. Also lots of great sailing venues at 3rd, Coyote, harbor and Chrissy to hone your skills further. You just need some hours and you will progress naturally on your weak side. Great fast start. Ahead of the proverbial curve. Have fun.
9'6" CRUZ Surf foil SUP (152L)
5'4" Slingshot Slingwing v2; 4m Cabrinha Crosswing
Axis 1020; 65cm Project Cedrus carbon mast
6'6" CRUZ 'CIM' Foil SUP (130L)
Chinook Thrust 92 Paddle -- fixed 78" length
Me: 185 lbs, 64 yo Half Moon Bay, CA

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2020, 08:33:59 AM »
You are correct....weak side takes time on the water. No shortcut to feeling comfortable. For me, it was less scary weak side with my back foot not in the strap.

For sure, stop using the 200. Big fat wings, when driven by wind power under choppy waters, pick up every pulse of energy in the water, so they pulse up/down constantly as you blast across the bay. While the GL wing will cruise steady and smooth under the wave energy, making it more fun and easier to ride. You just learn to pump the GL up in the same low wind as the 200.

Jibes....it just requires you to get comfortable riding unsupported by the wing. You can turn 90 degrees, then surf downwind, then back to your original direction. Keep surfing it, until you get comfortable down wind carving back and forth. Then just take it all the way around and work on getting comfortable toe side riding.

Riding a harness locks the power in more “steady” and lets you focus more on what your feet are doing. Driving the foil and feeling it, less distracted by the wing buffeting on your arms.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 08:35:57 AM by Dwight (DW) »

obxDave

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2020, 10:35:34 AM »

Great job!  No riding advice needed. You’ll be schooling the rest of us in no time.

•   My knees got all bloodied up.  I need to go from knees to standing almost instantly to avoid this

Been using them since day 1. I thought they would disintegrate in the first week but for some odd reason they are still going strong. Not too bulky. Just enough pad to deal with my crap knees. Even when you improve there will be times you’re not gonna pop right up for a bunch of reasons...Just a thought.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 10:43:56 AM by obxDave »

PonoBill

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2020, 08:26:23 PM »
What DW said. 1. As soon as you are getting up reliably ditch the M200. The Axis 1020 and 920 are medium performance wings that bear some resemblance to the M200--I can't stand being on either of them. It feels like I have a wad of kelp on my foil. You're going too fast for the M200. Either switch to your GL210 or 180 or leave GoFoil behind. Yes, sucks at first, but it's literally a two-day investment to move up to a higher performance wing.  I started on a GoFoil 280. I tried it a few months ago and couldn't figure out how I even used it, but for a long time, it was the only wing I could reliably get up on. You won't progress dragging huge wings around. I assume you have a pedestal tail. If you don't, get one. The huge amount of stabilizer incidence that beginner foils have cranked into them guarantee that as soon as you hit a lull you'll pitch up and then come down. It's also a big reason you can't foil well on your weak side.

This will sound weird, but you need to tune your foil setup so your front foot isn't doing all the work of keeping the foil under control. With the much higher range of speed and power the stabilizer incidence is a bigger deal. In a wave the power is coming from the foil, on a wing the power is coming from a point at least six feet higher than the foil--more like nine feet if you're overpowered and feathering over your head. Big difference. A good beginner setup has high incidence to resist that high center of thrust, but it results in high front foot pressure and a trim point that cranks in a few degrees of AOA, That works against you all the time, but it's WAY more noticeable on the weak side. When you're going from gust to lull, or when you turn downwind, the need for the stabilizer to counter the high center of effort goes away.  If you turn downwind and your foil immediately rises then you've got much too much. The wing isn't shoving the nose down, so up you go. Get that incidence angle under control and your front foot is just there to stand on. You can get back to where your foot pressure is controlled by shifting forward with your hips instead of pressing and praying.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but my front foot now needs to be behind my footstraps, on top of the handle if my rear foot is on the mast with the mast plate shoved all the way forward. What caused that radical change? A little washer.

Stick one thin washer in the front of your stabilizer and see what happens. You'll work harder to get up, but once you're up you are sliding through the water, not pushing through it. BIG difference.

Everything else is just TOW.

Oh, and foiling jibes requires that you be able to coast through the turns without wing force. Guess what happens if your foil is dragging.



« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 08:39:37 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

headmount

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2020, 01:51:55 AM »
What DW said. 1. As soon as you are getting up reliably ditch the M200. The Axis 1020 and 920 are medium performance wings that bear some resemblance to the M200--I can't stand being on either of them. It feels like I have a wad of kelp on my foil. You're going too fast for the M200. Either switch to your GL210 or 180 or leave GoFoil behind. Yes, sucks at first, but it's literally a two-day investment to move up to a higher performance wing.  I started on a GoFoil 280. I tried it a few months ago and couldn't figure out how I even used it, but for a long time, it was the only wing I could reliably get up on. You won't progress dragging huge wings around. I assume you have a pedestal tail. If you don't, get one. The huge amount of stabilizer incidence that beginner foils have cranked into them guarantee that as soon as you hit a lull you'll pitch up and then come down. It's also a big reason you can't foil well on your weak side.

This will sound weird, but you need to tune your foil setup so your front foot isn't doing all the work of keeping the foil under control. With the much higher range of speed and power the stabilizer incidence is a bigger deal. In a wave the power is coming from the foil, on a wing the power is coming from a point at least six feet higher than the foil--more like nine feet if you're overpowered and feathering over your head. Big difference. A good beginner setup has high incidence to resist that high center of thrust, but it results in high front foot pressure and a trim point that cranks in a few degrees of AOA, That works against you all the time, but it's WAY more noticeable on the weak side. When you're going from gust to lull, or when you turn downwind, the need for the stabilizer to counter the high center of effort goes away.  If you turn downwind and your foil immediately rises then you've got much too much. The wing isn't shoving the nose down, so up you go. Get that incidence angle under control and your front foot is just there to stand on. You can get back to where your foot pressure is controlled by shifting forward with your hips instead of pressing and praying.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but my front foot now needs to be behind my footstraps, on top of the handle if my rear foot is on the mast with the mast plate shoved all the way forward. What caused that radical change? A little washer.

Stick one thin washer in the front of your stabilizer and see what happens. You'll work harder to get up, but once you're up you are sliding through the water, not pushing through it. BIG difference.

Everything else is just TOW.

Oh, and foiling jibes requires that you be able to coast through the turns without wing force. Guess what happens if your foil is dragging.
Like this?

SUPeter

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2020, 04:51:11 AM »
Welcome to the world of fun and freakish foiling .   Looks like you are doing great with only a few sessions under your belt.  Its funny how impossible certain techniques seem to be and then, out of nowhere, those techniques become possible.  Concentrate less on getting to that expert level and more on  just enjoying the process of learning, and crashing.  As it was with foiling, step by step. at incrementally slow advances.  I could be wrong, but it looks like you are on the west side of the Atlantic again.  I have not been making it down to RI due to this Covid thing so we might miss each other.  Enjoy your wings.  I know I am.  And yes, as awkward as offside/weakside felt when I first started, it now feels as easy as my good side.  Its not as efficient going upwind but I really suck at switchstance.  Wishing I had at least been a windsurfer in my younger days.

PonoBill

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Re: Advanced Beginner Advice
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2020, 08:34:25 AM »

Like this?

Yup, though that is kind of a grande washer.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


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