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Author Topic: Built Like a Brick  (Read 1313 times)

OkiWild

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Built Like a Brick
« on: July 12, 2020, 09:43:09 PM »
School me on why we don't build a SUP with a basic layup sort of like what a surfboard has?

What would the problem be with using something like a more dense EPS in the middle of the range, and not the low-density, light weight stuff you see in many boards, and then just doing a heavier glass job like 6oz. on the bottom and two 6oz. on the top, with some reinforcement in the standing area? Other than wanting the board to last forever, why add the wood veneer or PVC in a sandwich? 

On the surface it seems like standard glass over a more dense foam would make for a livelier board (yet to surf a SUP like this). The sandwich boards I've surfed are tough, but don't' "feel" right. I guess my question is other than just making the board tough, why don't we see boards with a traditional layup, only a little thicker?

Thanks for your thought.

TallDude

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2020, 12:05:43 AM »
It would weigh a ton. The reason all the hot new pro surfers are getting crazy air, is because they are riding EPS foam boards that are insanely light. Plus they have more spring to them.  My 9'4 x 23 x 3.5 prone longboard that I shape out of 1.5# EPS and just did standard 4/4 4/6 E glass weighs about 9 pounds. My old 10' x 23 x 3" Infinity prone longboard is polyurethane foam and standard polyester resin and E glass. It weighs about 25 pounds. There were a handful of early SUPs made out of polyurethane foam. They were total tanks.
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burchas

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2020, 06:41:36 AM »
I've been looking into this for a while seems like going the route of XPS foam with light lamination schedule using Basalt rather than EPS/Fiberglass might produce
a livelier surf experience, durability and competitive weight. Seems like the XPS is very resistance to pressure dents and pretty much waterproof along with the Basalt
which is very durable and has a better tensile strength than S-Glass at lower cost (so I read) might be the way to go for surf sup.

See clip about the strength of Basalt VS Fiberglass at about the same weight and thinckness:
https://youtu.be/z7tvhl9rBNE

See clip about surfing almost naked XPS foam:
https://youtu.be/t-v19n6g1Bg

Link to a build of a board with XPS core, though not a surfboard it shows the light lamination:
https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,36195.0.html
That's still in progress but looking promising weight wise for a 130 liter board.
in progress...

TallDude

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2020, 09:21:34 AM »
I didn't read your question carefully enough Oki. My hand shaped 'green machine' is 1.5# EPS with just a 4 - 6 top and bottom. It does flex and surf very lively, but even newly finished it weighed 28 lbs. 9'4 x 31. The rails would get nicked by my paddle blade every time I surfed it. Put it on top of my car, and see little bubbles coming from a new wound. I put 3 more layers of glass on the rails, and that helped, but the board was heavier. Now it probably weighs 30+ lbs. Busted both side bite fin boxes out twice. Set them in a block of PVC foam the on the last repair. So repairs, repairs, repairs with a flexible standard hand layup. Can't even count how may time I had to drain the board, wait a week or two for it to dry and then repair it. Performance vs durability. 
My Coreban 10' x 29" was a full PVC wrap. Just bulletproof. Never did one repair. Had no flex at all :(
It's not overhead to me!
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supthecreek

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2020, 01:29:29 PM »
TD
very cool that you do that much testing and different builds!

burchas
Thanks for those 2 vids
The XTR/Carbon stinger was wild!
Never even heard of Basalt.... pretty impressive durability

Oki,
good question, getting interesting feedback!
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PonoBill

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2020, 03:29:51 PM »
I thought this post referred to this Dave Kalama picture of his latest foil board--even prettier than Mr. Fugly:

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

TallDude

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2020, 04:00:29 PM »
TD
very cool that you do that much testing and different builds!

Because of where I live, my friends and the people I grew up with, I'm around board building all the time. One of my best friends has a busy glass shop / surf shop. The singer in my old band sands for all the major brands in San Clemente, and a few in Huntington Beach. It's actually a pretty small community, but just about everyone knows everyone. We also know all the outsiders that are new to the business and new to the lineup. There's the small one small room glasser who lives in the loft above, to the production glassing companies that can do 30 to 40 boards a day. They are all right here in our little town. Hobie, Infinity, Stewart, Riviera, Lost, Timmy Patterson, etc. all right here. There's discussions on the beach and in the line-ups everyday about the trends and who's doing what. It's really a matter of survival. What sells and how much it costs to make it. Some are built to last, some build to generate repair work. That's the reality. For most, the good old surfboard is their bread and butter. There are only a few who really do well with SUP now days.
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

TallDude

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2020, 05:51:50 PM »
Here's the latest in performance surfing layups. Could translate into SUP surfing for sure. We are not really talking about durability... more flex performance.

Same company that is in the video that Burchas posted.

 https://epoxysurfboards.com/xtr-constructions-custom-flex-tips/

« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 05:59:18 PM by TallDude »
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

burchas

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2020, 06:35:50 PM »
The XTR/Carbon stinger was wild!
Never even heard of Basalt.... pretty impressive durability

That's too funny creek. I thought the XTR surf clip was impressive and the Basalt clip was wild ;D

Apparently the Basalt application has been going on for a while as a part of the search for "Green" construction.
I've seen some great stuff on that front from shapers looking to incorporate performance and durability while maintaining eco-friendly operation at competitive price.

As a side note for folks looking to incorporate Basalt in their boards - The material is a bitch to sand and will go through heaps of sand paper.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 06:39:52 PM by burchas »
in progress...

TallDude

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 07:16:40 PM »
Basalt mineral fiber is super strong, but does it replace a PVC sandwich? I don't know. PVC is costly. Do either of these flex well? In the building industry mineral fiber or mineral wool insulation has become very popular. It's fireproof and doesn't absorb water. Great stuff! Strangely enough, structural engineers are now wrapping existing older building structures with carbon fiber to bring them up to California's newer earthquake resistance requirements. Mostly hospitals.   
It's not overhead to me!
8'8" L-41 ST and a whole pile of boards I rarely use.

burchas

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 09:48:49 PM »
Basalt mineral fiber is super strong, but does it replace a PVC sandwich? I don't know. PVC is costly. Do either of these flex well?

All PVC sandwich constructions I've seen were super stiff. That's why I like it for a downwind board and made sure I have it in my new foil board.
I haven't seen any usage of PVC to create flex pattern other than use it as a thick stringer but if that's an option, make sense that price is prohibiting.

Basalt fiber already proven to some extent in the surf industry as material to completely replace glass. It has many weave patterns and offered as stringer tape as well
other reinforcement patches so in a way a single solution replacing both glass and carbon at a lower price. I have hard time believing boutique shapers will
offer Basalt surfboard if they can't provide decent level of performance. Especially if you add XPS core to the mix, now you can use light lamination schedule, lose at
least 1 vacuum bagging stage from the production and leave PVC to enjoy its hall of fame status at the plumbing industry  ;D

I think the mix of these 2 with some experimentation can produce some interesting inexpensive durable boards. I'm kind of talking my self into one as I write this ::)
in progress...

OkiWild

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2020, 02:58:09 AM »
Really good info here. Thanks for all the replies.

jrandy

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Re: Built Like a Brick
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2020, 04:35:02 PM »
https://youtu.be/-5EmnQp3V48

Shake it down, shake it down, shake it down now...
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Be safe, have fun. -J

 


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