Author Topic: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing  (Read 625 times)

red_tx

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Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« on: July 11, 2020, 05:41:58 PM »
Team,
I have noticed something that I believe is happening with my M200 and not my G210, for maybe obvious reasons.

I have been riding my G210 with my little cut down blue tail (see other thread somewhere) and I am having a tougher time popping the wing up to flight. I understand the GL 210 to be a bit tougher to fly initially on smaller waves, but once you are up its on.

Anyway. When I am catching waves with the M200 and cut Blue Tail, I am paddling, the wave is coming up behind me, I do this little un-weight, kind of toe scoot forward. I believe I learned this Stand up Paddle Surfing. My thoughts were that by un-weighting the board temporarily, I would shed drag temporarily and generate a bit of speed....

Well When I do this on the M200, I feel like that fucker is so buoyant that when I un-weight, the wing is literally floating up slightly and therefore shedding drag and putting me in a position to drive the wing down to initiate flight. Making it super easy to catch waves. Someone will respond..."Red the M200 is just easier to catch waves..."... I know... read more pls.

This does not happen on the G210, I feel like I need to be more in the pocket/peak/driving section of the wave. ..
 I am on a 7'4 106l board and weigh 160lbs.

What thinks you?
-red

PonoBill

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2020, 08:10:31 PM »
Red, the M200 is just easier to catch waves with.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Hdip

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2020, 08:29:45 PM »
The m200 has more slow speed lift. Possibly a slower stall speed. High aspect wings are touchy to pump. Low aspect wings you can hop up and down on them like a monkey.

I'd imagine it has to do with that.

SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 09:16:35 AM »
I just received my G210 the day I ended up shutting down foiling for a month (see other thread somewhere ;) :D) so I've not had a chance to fly that yet, but comparing my G180 to the M200 I find that they two completely different takeoff characteristics that separate them, but that make each of them easily able to catch waves...as long as you don't try to pop/pump into them the same on each.

With the M200 I found that it was like riding a roller-coaster in that it pumps more up and down vertically, whereas the G180 is a more of a slingshot as it likes to pump/project more horizontally.

So where you're used to unweighting the M200 which I did as well to get it to "pop" up, with the G180 (so I'm assuming the 210 also) I have to push or project it forward and let the increased speed of the push start to unweight it, and "lift" it from there.

Think of it as the M200 being a short runaway airplane with lots of quick lift but not a whole lot speed once in the air and how you'd "pop" the takeoff in that - vs - a much faster plane in the air, but one that needs a little longer runaway to build the speed before you can "lift" it off the ground (or out of the water).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 09:33:05 AM by SanoSlatchSup »
Me: 6'1"/185...6'0" Kings Foil Board...6'0" Chelu Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

surfcowboy

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 09:18:49 AM »
Can/does tail shim/angle affect this? Since HA wings seem to have a wider range could they stand adjusting the tail angle for earlier lift?

SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 09:54:36 AM »
I wouldn't mess with the tail angle (or forward foil placement) just for the momentary reward of early lift for take off, for the longer term negative effects you'll receive from it while in the air, and battling with it the whole time then. Just need to learn the different ways different wings need to be flown from takeoff and once in the air.
Me: 6'1"/185...6'0" Kings Foil Board...6'0" Chelu Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

PonoBill

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 10:21:10 AM »
Shimming the stabilizer can be extremely valuable, but it takes some careful experimenting to get it right. Several of the Axis stabilizers have a high positive value, like five degrees for the 440, which makes getting up out of the water easier, but then requires a lot of front foot pressure to control the wing at speed. It's like using the elevator on a plane to lift the nose for takeoff but then leaving all that up-elevator in place for the rest of the ride.

In general, I'm shimming the stabilizer for a lower angle of attack, which means I need more speed and jumping around to get the board off the water, but then once I'm up I can go faster and my foot pressure needs are greatly reduced. I've had to move my mast all the way forward to keep my front foot from sitting over the handle. Even with my mast fully forward my front foot is on top of the back screws holes of the front foot strap mount--there's no way I could get it into the footstrap with the stabilizer shimmed to its current amount (3 degrees). The payoff is that once I'm in the air, pitch control is simplified and the wing doesn't porpoise.

I might actually need to move the mast to the back and move my footstraps behind the handle if I want to use footstraps. Or move my back foot behind the mast, or just glass over the handle--I use the bottom handle most of the time anyway. Or I could build a new board.

I want to use my 340 stabilizer, but I haven't worked out the shimming yet, and who knows where that would leave my front foot position. I might be able to use the rear strap mount for my front foot. On the plus side, a narrower stance is much nicer for jibing.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 10:31:14 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

surfcowboy

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 10:33:23 AM »
I was basing this on the idea that the waves in a downwinder thatís not on Maui (lol) might not be too fast so the lift might balance the drag a bit.

If you follow the chop shop movement you can see that tails are at best an inexact science.

I guess my question is more about asking if in a crappy downwinder, dose the extra tail lift and the drag that comes with it negate the benefit of the HA wing? If not, then thereís an improvement to be made for local conditions vs factory stock. If not, then a big low aspect wing is the answer for non-Maliko quality downwinders. (Such as we have here in SoCal.)

Selfishly following this to see if I get an absurdly large low aspect wing to try (Gong XXL which is the clown shoe of wings) or a high aspect version of something.

Iím pretty sure at my weight I could fly the XXL with an umbrella to pull me lol.

jondrums

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Re: Un-Weight Bump Start - Larger Wing
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 10:27:19 PM »
The really thick M200 wing (and IWA too) has an interesting characteristic that the thin GL series wings don't have and I think this is what you're finding.  The thick wings can produce lift at very low speeds and very high angle of attack.  I used to be able to catch waves super early on those thick wings by doing exactly what you explained - unweight, the nose comes up pretty high, then when the board is out of the water you can press the nose back down and shoot forward.  I could also do this when the wave is winding down to stay on foil at really slow speeds with the nose angled up sharply.  The GL series can't do it, the thin foils stall out with too much angle of attack - so they need speed to get going instead and fall off foil once below that speed.

 


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