Author Topic: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging  (Read 1607 times)

WHS

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Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« on: July 08, 2020, 07:36:15 PM »
Hi. Looking for advice for progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging. Started learning to wake foil last week behind my wake surf boat. Today was my sixth session and everything finally clicked. I can easily pump up on foil and hold it with slack tow line without breaching while doing turns and or pumping to stay on wave. Up until today I was out running the wave and couldnít figure out how to slow up which left me in the flat with way too much slack in line frantically trying to cut back. I read about matching your foil to wave speed so I just kept raising speed until wave was keeping up to me. Still have no idea how to go slower without breaching or coming off foil. Any tips would be great, not always going to be able to just crank up the cruise control.

Iím using a Slingshot Gamma 68 foil which feels great (turns really nice) but donít think with a foil of that size I will be able to just leave the boat behind to down wind. From the post Iíve read (and Iíve read them all many times) a foil like the Axis 1020 might be great for light to moderate wind for winging as well as some pumping downwind. Open to suggestions and not tied to any brand yet.

For winging, Tahoe where I live gets a pretty consistent 10 to 20 most afternoons in the summer. We also get a lot of 20 to 25 days but those winds are almost always with gust of 40+, so Iíll likely focus on the lower wind days and I think a fairly large fast easy to turn foil is what I should get. Iím starting with a new foil before I decide on which board and wing. If I get confident and skilled enough Iíld like to get a pretty minimal size sup or even a wing specific board. Iím using a 4í-10Ē wake foil board and not sure I will like moving to a big sup just to learn to knee start. Any recommendations or comments are appreciated. Iím 175lbs 6í0 and well worn at the age of 62.

WHS

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 09:55:16 AM »
As I said I have read thru this and other forums on foiling many times. So much great info and valid recommendations it starts getting confusing (not mention redundant), so rather than just ask for a rehash of the same recommendations maybe I can get some feedback on assumptions that Iím using to make my decision.  Here is what Iím considering for 1st foil purchase:

My first concern is picking a brand that offers plenty of options and is likely to keep up with new designs as foiling continues to develop. My impression is Axis has the most organized range in design and size. Gofoil and Armstrong both seem to have some big holes in their line-ups even tho what they do offer may be the best option for many users. Also like that with Axis I can save $500 by starting with aluminum mast and upgrade later to carbon without losing too much. I have read that the aluminum weighs same as carbon but that taper of carbon has nicer flex? Iím considering the 920 and/or the 1020. I think for a advancing beginner a medium aspect foil give the best combination of performance: Fast and easy turning without compromising low speed lift and stability. At least thats what Iím hoping. Correct me if wrong!

As an alternative option I placed an order for Gong Curve XL in order to get shipping cost to US. Suppose to start shipping tomorrow. Price is very attractive but IĒm assume part of that has to do with the quality not just cutting out the dealers. The XL is similar to Axis 920 as far as I can tell. I know there are some Gong users that really like them. Hope to hear more reviews and opinions.

Please note all my assumptions are based on 2nd hand opinions so please correct me or let me know if Iím missing some facts I should consider. And of course recommendations please.

Wetstuff

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 02:14:23 PM »
WHS,  The lack of response may be the season or the fact you have leapfrogged many of us.  '6X and going' sounds as if you are pretty skilled already.  All the names you mention get great reviews.  From the impression I get, you'll not be disappointed with GONG product.  When you have to support a dealer network, some models may live too long as they need time to clear, so as not become orphans at a retailer in an already difficult market.  I imagine Patrice can quietly 'drop a page' here and there while grabbing attention with new releases.  Let us know how the shipping goes... it seems a weakness with GONG. When you get it, get out your camera.  Have fun.

Jim
Atlantis Mistress .. Blue Planet MultiTasker ..   Atlantis Venom

WHS

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 05:57:54 PM »
Not sure about leapfrogging anyone but using a boat is definately cheating! Specialy when you can control wave shape. Anyone paddling out into the ocean to learn to foil has my respect!!! After my 1st few sessions I was thinking it would take all summer. It was really hard until it wasn't. If I had not continued on the boat I think it would have taken a very long time. Being able to ride the same (endless) wave over and over is key. Highly recommend spending a full week on a boat if you can before moving on. I have lots of experience wakesurfing so that really helped progression.

I'm not sold on Gong yet. I'll decide when they send quote for shipping. Little concerned about getting future products as well as shipping time now. Still think Axis maybe surer option.

Thanks for your comments.

PonoBill

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2020, 11:15:42 PM »
I started on GoFoil, switched to axis mostly because of the way the wing and fuselage attach--it's how I'd do it if I were going to do that commercially. I also think their wing and stabilizer collection make good sense and don't leave any holes in the range that I need. I've had the opportunity to try other foils, and while some are very impressive (Moses especially) I haven't tried anything that makes me want to switch again.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2020, 02:16:40 AM »
Hi WHS,

I am basically your weight and height (6'2, 177 lbs this morning - man, has this sport got me eating this summer).  Axis 920 and 1020 will both foil you in very light wind.  I am using the 920 on the lightest days here and it is great.  Oh, consider my opinion for winging only.  I have no experience with other modes of foiling.  The 1010 has even more lift than the 920 and it is faster.  It will fight you a little in the turns.  The 1000 is amazing for consistent, stronger wind (20-30).  It is no fun in light wind and is more work if it is super rangey.  If 20 is your top wind speed it is not the one for you.

I love the Axis system and I am hopeful and confident that they will add some winging foils between the 920 and the 1000 in a turner/burner design. 1450, 1550, 1650 at 920 wide please :).  Their modular system is amazing. 

For boards you will want to start on a foil SUP for a while.  You will advance out of it pretty quickly but the resale market is instant.  There is plenty to learn on a stable board and you can still foil like mad.  You will speed up your progress by not fighting your board in the early days. 

WHS

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2020, 08:21:22 AM »
I started on GoFoil, switched to axis mostly because of the way the wing and fuselage attach--it's how I'd do it if I were going to do that commercially. I also think their wing and stabilizer collection make good sense and don't leave any holes in the range that I need. I've had the opportunity to try other foils, and while some are very impressive (Moses especially) I haven't tried anything that makes me want to switch again.

Thanks for recommendation. This confirms what I thought looking at their line. Great design, excellent construction, wide variety options for various conditions. Lots of positive reviews. Do you have an opinion on the carbon mast? My feeling is I can get an extra wing for difference in cost but not sure if that's right way to think about it.

WHS

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2020, 09:10:37 AM »
Axis 920 and 1020 will both foil you in very light wind.  I am using the 920 on the lightest days here and it is great. 

The 1010 has even more lift than the 920 and it is faster.  It will fight you a little in the turns. 

The 1000 is amazing for consistent, stronger wind (20-30).  It is no fun in light wind and is more work if it is super rangey.  If 20 is your top wind speed it is not the one for you.

I love the Axis system and I am hopeful and confident that they will add some winging foils between the 920 and the 1000 in a turner/burner design. Their modular system is amazing. 

For boards you will want to start on a foil SUP for a while. You will speed up your progress by not fighting your board in the early days.

If the 920 would work for me in light wind conditions that would be awesome. I need more lift than the 68 Gamma but love how easy it turns. Maybe the 920 is right mix if 1020 is going "to fight me in the turns".

For boards yes speeding up progress is very important to me! Maybe a fairly short high volume sup that I can still stand on to avoid kneestarts? A 6-0 Kalama is 125lt for example. I would consider this too small for starting out with a paddle but maybe ok for wing? Not sure how important board quality even is in winging? Seems like a Gong Hipe would work as good as anything at fraction of the cost. Great option but again not available and bad shipping situation.

PonoBill

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2020, 03:14:35 PM »
The 1020 doesn't "fight you in the turns", that's the 1010, which is a flat high aspect wing. The 1020 is lower aspect and has substantial anhedral. It turns nicely. It's the same fundamental shape as the 920, just bigger--for fat guys like me. At your weight you probably don't need a 1020 until you start trying to go on days with just a light wind. I can surf comfortably on a 6' Kalama, though you probably wouldn't guess that it's stable--I fall a lot. But that's just geezeritis. I don't know what volume my 6'6" X 32" Flying Dutchman is, but it could be quite a bit smaller for winging. As a point of reference, I'm 225#, 73, and clumsy.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 03:19:22 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

WHS

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2020, 04:22:56 PM »
The 1020 doesn't "fight you in the turns", that's the 1010, which is a flat high aspect wing.

At your weight you probably don't need a 1020 until you start trying to go on days with just a light wind.

I can surf comfortably on a 6' Kalama, though you probably wouldn't guess that it's stable--I fall a lot.

oops misread quote about the 1020 and 1010. That makes sense. Like to get a HA wing in future if I find I need it but the 1150 discription sounds pretty good for user friendly HA wing.

So if you can surf the 6' Kalama I would think it's stable enough for me to get up on a wing? Also be great later on when I'm skilled enough to use in ocean.

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2020, 01:17:07 AM »
If the 920 would work for me in light wind conditions that would be awesome.

The 920 with a 400 tail will be great.  It will get you going in your normal wind, stay fun in your higher winds (you will definitely start going on those days once you are infected :) ) and by the time you get to the ocean you will already have two more foils and another board :).  We had 10-20 here the last few days (one averaging 12, one more like 17) and that is perfect 5.0, 920 conditions. 

The 1020/500 tail was my first Axis foil kit and it was great as well.  A little more lift and a little more drag.  If you are looking for the most lifty, stable and confidence inspiring Axis foil right off the bat, that is it.

WHS

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2020, 05:01:50 PM »
If the 920 would work for me in light wind conditions that would be awesome.

The 920 with a 400 tail will be great.  It will get you going in your normal wind, stay fun in your higher winds

The 1020/500 tail was my first Axis foil kit and it was great as well.  A little more lift and a little more drag.  If you are looking for the most lifty, stable and confidence inspiring Axis foil right off the bat, that is it.

I was thinking of 440 with 920 but I guess 400 is better option.

Just reread the 19 page Axis post in wingfoil section. Definitely get a different perspective now that I've gotten some foil time. I liked what you said about benefit of taper and smoothness on carbon mast. Makes sense to me. (In sailing that would be a huge speed advantage. Of course in sailing a 1/4 knot is huge). You still think there is an advantage with the carbon? Not a lot of others seem to think its worth the extra money when the aluminum is so stiff.

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2020, 05:28:11 PM »
Yes, the Axis Carbon Masts are awesome.  We are both loving them.

PonoBill

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2020, 07:01:27 PM »
The 1020 doesn't "fight you in the turns", that's the 1010, which is a flat high aspect wing.

At your weight you probably don't need a 1020 until you start trying to go on days with just a light wind.

I can surf comfortably on a 6' Kalama, though you probably wouldn't guess that it's stable--I fall a lot.

oops misread quote about the 1020 and 1010. That makes sense. Like to get a HA wing in future if I find I need it but the 1150 discription sounds pretty good for user friendly HA wing.

So if you can surf the 6' Kalama I would think it's stable enough for me to get up on a wing? Also be great later on when I'm skilled enough to use in ocean.

No question. You could go quite a bit smaller for wing. If you can kneel on it, it's good.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

WHS

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Re: Progressing from wake foiling to downwind and winging
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 01:35:42 PM »
Yes, the Axis Carbon Masts are awesome.  We are both loving them.

Tempting.

Just switched mast to 61cm from baby size. So much harder to flip board on rail to get up. Figured it out but if carbon foil floated that would make it easier. Slingshot is like an anchor. Higher mast is bit wobbly but that may be me not flex of foil? Higher mast is so much easier to stay on foil and pump. Had an 8+ minute run today that I flew entirely on foil. Ready for a foil that I can leave the boat behind and do some downwinding.

Axis 920, 400, 68mm 9mm al mast, and short fuse is in the cart. Just mulling over the mast but about to press buy button and quit worrying about it.

 


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