Author Topic: Back to this issue of a "loose" connection between Axis carbon mast / black fuse  (Read 4576 times)

wingdingjoe

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
    • Email
Sorry to bring up this "old" topic but.. After 2 years of beating up my 19mm alu mast I'm looking at the carbon options.

We have the "newest" POWER carbon mast in 820cm BOTH in high modulus and "normal" carbon...

And the 860 cm carbon (red and black) carbon masts are... Somehow different besides being 40cm longer?
These are the older models?
Are THESE the ones that had too much play at the connection to the fuse?
I suck at epoxy work (and weigh over 90kilos and ride the 999 alot) so not really keen on buying something new that's wobbly from the outset.

Thanx a million for anyone who can clear this up for me!

Beasho

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3177
    • View Profile
I was going to post a similar Topic which is the PLAY at the Mast Head and at the Fuselage for the 19mm Axis Aluminum gear.

I had been using a Tuttle head, so less room for play, but recently bought a Mast Plate for a new board.  I immediately noticed the PLAY at the Mast - Plate interface.

2 of my other Foil amigos had already mentioned this but have been using Aluminum Tape to Shim.  NOT ideal.

This summer I noticed that EVERY session when I was pumping a small board with 68 cm mast my bolts would loosen, specifically the front bolt.  This is mostly UNDER compression and release (whereas the back bolt was largely in tension), which tended to loosen the bolts.  However I then noticed that the mast-fuselage interface was not completely tight.  I have since shimmed my doodad and the base of the doodad into the fuselage.  Again - NOT ideal.  But things seem to have stiffened up.

PS:  My two foil amigos are running the 1300 and 1310 wings SUP foiling and Downwinding with the Aluminum mast.  And NOT complaining once they were all shimmed up.  AKA people say the Aluminum is NOT stiff enough but the JOINTS are showing the play vs. the actual MAST infrastructure. 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2022, 10:22:44 AM by Beasho »

wingdingjoe

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
    • Email
Damn Beasho... Here I was all stoked that someone was answering my questions so fast and it was just YOU hijacking my thread with your aluminum cans! Lol🤣

I shimmed the mast base side with one little layer of aluminum tape and it's held tight for many months. The doodad side is always nice and snug.

Now... Getting back to the question at hand.. 🤣🤣😜
Do we have the same exact carbon "head" that connects to the fuse on the red and black 860 carbon masts as we do on the NEWEST power carbon 820? Would anyone be so kind as to attend to that query please?

Good winds!

Hdip

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 470
    • View Profile
Sorry to bring up this "old" topic but.. After 2 years of beating up my 19mm alu mast I'm looking at the carbon options.

We have the "newest" POWER carbon mast in 820cm BOTH in high modulus and "normal" carbon...

And the 860 cm carbon (red and black) carbon masts are... Somehow different besides being 40cm longer?
These are the older models?
Are THESE the ones that had too much play at the connection to the fuse?
I suck at epoxy work (and weigh over 90kilos and ride the 999 alot) so not really keen on buying something new that's wobbly from the outset.

Thanx a million for anyone who can clear this up for me!

From what I've seen in the wild out here in Los Angeles. The v2 carbon masts (red and black 860) sometimes had play in the mast to fuse connection and sometimes had to be repotted to fit tight. After this reworking they were SUPER tight.

The new power carbon and high modulus masts are very tight right out of the box and even have a sticker on them with directions on how to get it set all the way into the fuse.

Deep Sea

  • Waikiki Status
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
    • Email
Wingdingjoe:
Yes, they are different. The new Axis Power Carbons are .25 & .35 stronger respectively than the 19mm aluminum mast and definitely stronger than the 1st generation carbon mast.
Yes, the first generations can have play. Itís dependent on both the mast and fuse tolerances. You can build a better connection, if necessary, by building up with epoxy.
The new Power Carbons evidently have a new hinged system that takes care of any play.
Blue Planet interviews Adrian Roper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmIZhpxglw
About 41 min. in the new power carbons are explained.
I still like the aluminum for a number of reasons, mainly $$$.
SIC 14' V1 Bullet, Flying Dutchman, QB Ona Ava, Axis Foils, & Goya Sails.

Califoilia

  • Axis Demo Rep
  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1505
  • San Clemente
    • View Profile
    • Email
Sorry to bring up this "old" topic but.. After 2 years of beating up my 19mm alu mast I'm looking at the carbon options.

We have the "newest" POWER carbon mast in 820cm BOTH in high modulus and "normal" carbon...

And the 860 cm mm carbon (red and black) carbon masts are... Somehow different besides being 40cm mm longer?
Completely different from the "older" 86cm (860mm) carbon mast. The new masts have the same chord width from baseplate to fuse connection, whereas the "older" carbon masts' chord tapered narrower from the baseplate to the fuse connection. The shape of the "Power Carbon" mast is also different than the "older" carbon, with the 19mm thickness area moved back some from the leading edge of the "PC" vs the "older" masts.

These improvements not only make the "PCs" much stiffer than the "older" carbons, but also faster, and track/turn better with the wider wings (ARTs and HPS) than is possible with the "older" carbon masts...especially as you go longer in mast length.

Quote
These are the older models?
Are THESE the ones that had too much play at the connection to the fuse?
I suck at epoxy work (and weigh over 90kilos and ride the 999 alot) so not really keen on buying something new that's wobbly from the outset.
Yes, some of the "older" carbon masts needed to be recast, and I've done 10-12 of them. It's really a pretty easy process if you have PVA mold release (available on Amazon), 2-part epoxy, Cabosil, black pigment (optional), and a good fuse to use as your "mold".

Quote
Thanx a million for anyone who can clear this up for me!
Hope that helps, and what you were looking for. If not, let me know what I missed.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2022, 08:21:02 PM by Califoilia »
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

liv2surf

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 177
    • View Profile
    • Email
Wingdingjoe:
Yes, they are different. The new Axis Power Carbons are .25 & .35 stronger respectively than the 19mm aluminum mast and definitely stronger than the 1st generation carbon mast.
Yes, the first generations can have play. Itís dependent on both the mast and fuse tolerances. You can build a better connection, if necessary, by building up with epoxy.
The new Power Carbons evidently have a new hinged system that takes care of any play.
Blue Planet interviews Adrian Roper:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXmIZhpxglw
About 41 min. in the new power carbons are explained.
I still like the aluminum for a number of reasons, mainly $$$.
I have been using the Axis 90 cm Power Carbon high modulus carbon mast for >4 months. The connection point of ths mast is very, very snug. I need to use a rubber mallet to disconnect the mast from my black series Fuse. Using this mast, my foild is considerably stiffer overall than when ppeciously using my 19mm Alu mast.
5'6 Quatro Wingdrifter Pro 105L; Cabrinha Mantis 3.1m, 4m, 5m and 6m; Axis 1000 (1150, 1020); Project Cedrus 91 cm carbon mast (68 cm fuse, 440/5000 rear); 9'6" CRUZ Surf foil SUP (152L); Chinook Thrust 92 Paddle -- fixed 78" length; 'prone' longboards on the rack, kites in the garage.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25759
    • View Profile
A little more hijacking, and then back to the original topic: To Beasho's point, I use an impact driver to put my stuff together--that is NOT recommended to anyone who lacks mechanical sympathy. If you get carried away you'll be learning how to Helicoil immediately thereafter. But getting these parts consistently tight fixes part of the problem. I've counted the number of impact clicks required from the driver I have dedicated to foil assembly. I tested it all with a good torque wrench at maximum torque for 8mm threads in aluminum.

My first foils were GoFoils, and I hated the imprecise fit of the original product. The one-piece mast and fuselage approach of GoFoil eliminates a number of sources of wobble at the expense of versatility but moves the wobble directly to the ill-fitting wings. That has vastly improved now that they are manufacturing the parts with greater precision, but it's the reason I switched to Axis. And yes, Axis has its own fitment issues, but they are easier to address and the modular approach is more versatile. The mast plate is the hardest issue to fix because the mast is a long lever, applying all the lateral and twisting forces of the foil to a fairly shallow socket. I liked how the parts are attached, but there is always play in an unshimmed mast plate unless it's tight enough to require a hammer to assemble. Even then over time, the socket gets looser from the lateral forces bending the lips slightly. It would be feasible to manufacture these parts to a tighter tolerance and stronger design but it would probably double the cost and make the mast plate inevitably clunky. So I shim my masts very tightly and expect to eventually re-shim them. Aluminum tape remains the easiest way to do that, but I never disassemble the plate from the mast except to refresh the shimming. I shim to the point that I have to hammer the plate onto the mast.

I have two of the original carbon masts, which I only use for foil surfing with smaller foils. For winging I use aluminum though I'll eventually get some of the new masts. I've repotted both of my masts. A good fit to the mast substantially reduces wing wobble. Overtightening the attachment screws is a temporary fix--perhaps five minutes of riding. If there is enough looseness to the fit the screws will loosen shortly. And it generally will be the front screw. I don't have a theory why the front screw is the usual victim, but it is. I suspect Beasho's compression/tension cycles idea is correct. If you find your front screw loose after a session it won't help to go harder on it next time.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 09:53:12 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Foamranger

  • Waikiki Status
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
    • Email
After reading this it it makes me feel better about sticking with Armstrong since the beginning (of course I have thought about switching (expensive). Iím no machinist but the build seems solid and well thought out, and the foils work for me (though I donít have anything to compare them with). Maybe Iíll get one of those new high modulus masts and never be tempted to leave the foldÖ

 


* Recent Posts

post Re: Vision Pro
[Random]
burchas
June 06, 2023, 09:01:04 PM
post Re: Vision Pro
[Random]
surfcowboy
June 06, 2023, 07:07:57 PM
post Re: Takuma TK Carbon Wing Foilboard 75 liters 5'4" + Armstrong Board Bag
[Classifieds]
Foil_Bill
June 06, 2023, 11:28:06 AM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
Badger
June 06, 2023, 08:10:10 AM
post Vision Pro
[Random]
Admin
June 06, 2023, 07:15:28 AM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
Bean
June 06, 2023, 06:57:01 AM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
surfinJ
June 06, 2023, 03:36:56 AM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
ospreysup
June 05, 2023, 10:17:36 PM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
surfercook
June 05, 2023, 06:45:32 PM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
supthecreek
June 05, 2023, 06:04:21 PM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
burchas
June 05, 2023, 04:38:44 PM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
PonoBill
June 05, 2023, 04:01:50 PM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
supmmmm
June 05, 2023, 02:11:10 PM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
Admin
June 05, 2023, 07:44:21 AM
post Re: Motivation?
[General Discussion]
surfcowboy
June 04, 2023, 07:16:48 PM
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2023, SimplePortal