Author Topic: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke  (Read 1053 times)

LoudounSUP

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The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« on: July 01, 2020, 10:48:08 AM »
Hi everyone - I'm in my third week of SUP.  I'm hooked! I did my first "time trial" this morning. Talk about humble pie...not so fast. 3k in 26 mins. I need to find the right balance between stroke rate (currently in the low 30's) and power. In the rowing community there is a lot of focus on how a boat "runs" - basically the glide you get between strokes. What drills do you all recommend to improve distance per stroke? Also, perhaps I have this all wrong and need to focus on getting my stroke rate in the 40's before focusing on distance per stroke? I'm a blank canvas and open to any ideas.

DP
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burchas

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2020, 11:12:51 AM »
Also, perhaps I have this all wrong and need to focus on getting my stroke rate in the 40's before focusing on distance per stroke? I'm a blank canvas and open to any ideas.

Low 30's is a comfortable touring pace but too much idle time to be concerned about Distance Per Stroke. If you can bring it to low 40's and maintain 10ft per stroke average you'll be making progress.
in progress...

LoudounSUP

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2020, 04:25:14 PM »
Also, perhaps I have this all wrong and need to focus on getting my stroke rate in the 40's before focusing on distance per stroke? I'm a blank canvas and open to any ideas.

Low 30's is a comfortable touring pace but too much idle time to be concerned about Distance Per Stroke. If you can bring it to low 40's and maintain 10ft per stroke average you'll be making progress.

Thanks Burchas. I'll focus on stroke rate for the next few weeks. About measuring distance per stroke - what is the best monitor/GPS device to track this? 
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burchas

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 05:54:28 PM »
In early stages I believe a standard Garmin GPS watch should do the trick. Lots of useful metrics to track progression.
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LoudounSUP

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2020, 07:17:22 PM »
Okay, I'm making some progress on this front. I'm using an iPhone app called Rowing Coach 4.0. On my inflatable, for my 4 mile course, I'm averaging a little better than 5mph, SPM ~ 38, and distance per stroke is 10-13 ft.  I'd like to get a consistent rate up a few more beats per min and then I'll start working on other things like paddling straight. haha
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singingdog

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2020, 04:17:33 AM »
There's nothing in this thread about foils or wings.....is that allowed ? ;)
Glad you are enjoying yourself. I was in your shoes a few years ago. My advice is to make sure you are focusing on technique, not stroke rate or speed. It's crazy-hard to undue bad technique, very easy to achieve speed once you have good technique.

PonoBill

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2020, 08:32:50 AM »
^^Dog has it 100% right. Technique first. Everything else second.

You can increase your run by letting the board coast until it almost stops--but you'll be very slow and you'll work twice as hard. Run has always been a misused notion, even in the rowing community, because it is a good measure in the right circumstance and completely moronic used wrong. If cadence rate is fixed the rower that gets more distance per stroke is going faster--but they are getting more distance per stroke because they are going faster, not because the board is coasting longer. They have better technique, are more powerful, or their craft has less drag--or all three. As soon as your paddle is no longer having power applied to it your craft starts slowing. To keep your board going at some average speed you have to apply enough force to accelerate it back to the speed it was going when your last stroke ended--if you let the craft run, that will be a lot more force.

One of the many reasons surf skis are faster than SUPs is that the delay time between power strokes is so short. That has led lots of people who try to solve the wrong problem to make double-bladed SUP paddles, which are inevitably too long, too heavy, and too slow transitioning with every stroke. Sit down, add a foot brace, and get a serious surfski paddle and you'll be faster--or far better yet, get a ski. But the effort required to optimize surfski paddle technique makes learning to paddle a SUP seem trivial.

Or just work on your technique and don't worry about exotic stuff like cadence and run. If you aren't going straight, your technique sucks. That means your paddle probably isn't fully buried at the catch, you aren't pushing it down enough as you pull, and that means the shaft can't be close enough to your rail so more of the power in your stroke is being wasted as a turning vector. If your blade hits the rail your paddle isn't buried and you are going to turn. If your paddle isn't buried and you are NOT hitting the rail with the blade your turning force will be even greater.

Do NOT increase your cadence until your technique is good--you'll just blow up whatever technique you have, and as Dog says, it's much harder to fix bad technique than it is to learn good technique from the start. There are lots of great videos on paddling technique from Larry Cain, Dave Kalama, and Jonny Puakea--watch them, do drills, make every stroke as good as you can. That's not as much fun as just flailing away as fast as you can, but any progress you make by doing that will be at the cost of ever getting good. You'll hit a wall you can't get past until you go all the way back to the basics and start over. If you think doing drills is boring shit now, imagine what it will be like a year from now whan you have to go all the way back to beginner.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 08:54:04 AM by PonoBill »
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pdxmike

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2020, 03:07:45 PM »
As soon as I see discussions like this my mind goes to swimming, and what PonoBill and singingdog says sounds like perfect advice.  Several years ago with swimming, swimming clinics for triathletes popped up everywhere that basically taught "distance per stroke at all costs".  If you concentrate on distance per stroke, you can make huge gains, but probably at the cost of going slower and destroying your technique. 


You can make your paddling distance per stroke higher by gilding too long, reaching too far forward and pulling out too late, using a paddle that's too long...Also, people with overly long strokes have overly long and slow recoveries, and then take more effort to get the board (or body) going fast again because you're starting from (comparatively) being almost dead in the water.


In swimming, we'd do several trials in a 50-meter pool, trying different stroke rates, and obviously the greater your turnover, the more strokes you took because your glide shortened.  Most people went fastest when their turnover was faster than they thought it should be.  So ugly, choppy strokes were fastest, but that's for 50 meters, and it's exhausting.


Good swimmers almost always take surprisingly fewer strokes than poorer ones while going faster.  A lot of that is due to body position and streamlining.  (They have more effective strokes, but a good 60-year-old masters woman swimmer can beat most 25-year-old male triathletes, and the reason isn't strength of strokes, it's slowing down less between strokes.)  You can't manipulate those paddling, so I guess the equivalent would be working on your balance so you can use a narrower and more efficient board, and keep the board going straight forward with good technique.


So like the others said, technique is everything. 




supthecreek

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2020, 05:35:16 PM »
It's fun to dial in a good stroke and get faster, more efficient... enjoy the ride!

Please don't forget the one stroke, that will be with you for life... next to surfing, it's still my favorite way to enjoy SUP.

after 11 years of practice... I have this one mastered  :)
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Luc Benac

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2020, 06:40:24 AM »
There are a lot of factors at play and the learning process is constant even after several years paddling.
Some of the fine details of the technique to learn do changes from time to time i.e. strong rotation or less rotation......videos you have seen with Larry Cain, Connor Baxter, John Pukuea/Travis Grant...
And what you are getting from these might also change over time as your body/mind adapts and (hopefully) improve.
In the past year or more, I have been focussing in turn on weight on top hand, hip engagement, and lately fast return of the blade in the water (the twice the time in the water/once teh time out as a mind trick). Each has been bringing a bit of improvement that have been so far cumulative.
I forgot the distance per stroke long time ago and even the cadence I do not check specially other than having overall improved from 38 to 42 average.
I also paddle in places where a good reading of the water and a different line will speed you up so any such measurement is relative. If you can practise in a flat water no wind environment that that would be ideal for stroke technique exercise (but also pretty boring...).
After that good technique should also transform itself a bit with paddling conditions (big chop, big wind.....)
In summary I am still a beginner after several years.
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LoudounSUP

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2020, 01:05:40 PM »
Great post Luc! I am lucky to train on a flat reservoir but its also susceptible to wind (like today) so I do to get practice in carrying conditions. Today, it was upwind for 1-mile, then a killer downwinder for 2-miles, and another 1 mile of upwind side chop (which is currently my achilles heel). I don't get swells or real waves on the reservoir, only calf-high white caps but for a 3-month rookie - it felt like the 'perfect storm' this morning...lol.
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burchas

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Re: The Concept of "Run"..i.e., Distance per Stroke
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2020, 07:39:50 PM »
I don't get swells or real waves on the reservoir, only calf-high white caps but for a 3-month rookie - it felt like the 'perfect storm' this morning...lol.

This is another case where size does NOT matter, only what you do with it ;D Obviously you put it to good use since it seems like you had fun.
in progress...

 


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