Author Topic: What do people want in a foil?  (Read 2646 times)

flkiter

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What do people want in a foil?
« on: June 19, 2020, 08:44:45 AM »
I know there's a lot of styles out there but I was wondering what people are hoping the future of foils will be. More glide, easier lift, speed? Are the guys that were sup foiling, now just wing? For myself, my passion is sup foiling so the higher aspect, more glide and speed is what I like but there is way more to this sport than just that.

SUPeter

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2020, 09:14:05 AM »
Liking the higher aspect wings in general but I believe foils will become more versatile.  What does that mean?  A single  foil which flies well on small waves and will still be easily managed on larger, faster drops.  A lot of this depends on the riders technique but foil design plays a big role.  These same foils will also be good for wingfoiling since with variable wind speeds come variable foiling speeds.  Just my 10 cents divided by 100.

PonoBill

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2020, 09:26:03 AM »
^^yup, that. I want a foil that turns well, goes fairly fast, and maintains lift as it turns. Right now my foil gear that I schlep around in my truck consists of two masts, two fuselages, four front wings, three stabilizers, and four wingdings. As well as hardware, tools, a lot of lines and crap.

I want one front wing that can lift my fat ass at a reasonable speed, goes fast, glides well, and turns.

I suspect what that would look like for me is a gull-wing version of the 101. The only problem with the 101 right now is that it doesn't turn for shit.

I'd love to be able to carry everything for winging on my fat tire e-bike. I can get close right now if the wind speed forecast is accurate. The bike is ready, I just need to trim down the gear requirements.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Thatspec

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2020, 09:39:14 AM »
Hah, you beat me to it Bill :)
posting anyway...

If it would be possible to have a design that has the glide of an Axis 1010 but improved roll rate I'd probably buy one. I've become pretty used to it now not having switched back to my more surf style wings in a while (I should do that for reference...)
The 1010 has been close to ideal for downwinding and general lawn mowing here in the Gorge. Even at my weight (about 200 in a wetsuit), I don't feel a need to try the bigger version. Assume the 910 would be easier to link turns but don't really want to to be switching around what's under the water (one wing solution), just what's above.

supnorte

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2020, 10:25:58 AM »
The guys are loving the 1010 for wingfoiling in light winds and also downwind in the breeze.

Here's a friend of mine yesterday: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=340137070303116

Anyway, the future is to have a quiver, just like in other sports. You have a few wings (2, 3, 4 or even more) and trade them depending on what you will do that day (SUP, prone, downwind, wing, pump), etc. That's why modular foils sets work great!

P.S. I'm loving the Axis 1000 on the waves! Can really go for steep drops without popping out with no control and I rarely breach (only when I do mistakes). Awesome speed and pumping. I'm not carving on it (still on a learning phase), but I can change direction easily. My quiver right now is the 920, 1020 and 1010, but in the near future it will be the 1000, the 1010 and the 1150.

jondrums

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2020, 10:41:49 AM »
For me it all comes down to lift-drag ratio.  I want the same lift I'm getting from the GL210 with less drag.  The jump from IWA/M200 to GL210 was revolutionary and mostly comes down to massively reduced drag.  That either results in higher speed capability on a given wave OR going the same speed but requiring a lot less wave slope/power/size.  For me, it is all about the latter - I want to play on smaller waves or waves that are less critical or waves that aren't even breaking at all.     Part of this is coming from a place in the world that is just too damn crowded and I want to ride zones that nobody else wants to be.  Right now with the GL, I can   ride waves that only the longboarders want, and I can pick them up more outside and/or more on the shoulder than the longboarders - and therefore I'm riding with nobody within 25ft of me.  But I want to ride where nobody would even be close.  That means riding waves when the longboarders won't even paddle out.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2020, 12:11:50 PM »
SUP and winging foils will go in two different design directions.

I have access to info on where winging is going. The wave riding, winging down winders, in Maui, are cruising at 18 and hitting 28. Iíve seen private video of it. It would blow your head off to see the speed they are ripping that run, and the ocean swells apart at. Down right scary and super fun looking.

The foil designs need to keep pace with where the wind wing designs will be next year, and each year after that. No different than the early years of windsurfing. Sail design dictated board design. Wings will dictate where foils need to go.

Foils are already falling behind.

SUP Iím not concerned about. We have plenty of choices now.


Dwight (DW)

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2020, 04:24:12 PM »

SUPeter

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2020, 05:55:27 PM »
Wow!  That left a smile on my face!  Thanks for the video DW.  So fast.  You are right >  Foils will need to keep up with the wings.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2020, 06:10:04 PM »
Wow!  That left a smile on my face!  Thanks for the video DW.  So fast.  You are right >  Foils will need to keep up with the wings.

And that was the bad video. Iíve seen some real high quality video, where the visual impact of the speed is more mind blowing.

clay

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2020, 07:19:31 PM »
Surf foiling I know exactly what I want, so having the wings I like in 10 different sizes is on my wish list, 1000-2000.

Wing foiling - a demo van at every good spot stocked full of foil sizes and shapes so I can try a bunch of stuff back to back.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

Admin

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2020, 01:56:51 AM »
For winging, I want an Axis 1000 that I can use in 8 Knots.  If it could also rub my back, grill sausages, and bring me beer that would be sweet.

I have been twisting carbon masts on the beach this week (tractor steering wheel test) and the Axis Carbon masts are the stiffest I have twisted (Moses, GoFoil).  That makes a great platform and the reduced mast tips and streamlined base adds nicely to foil performance.  All this stuff counts. 

I would love to see Axis do a wing specific "freeride" (sorry) line that offers a little more meat than the 900 and 1000 but not to the extent of the 920 and 1020 and keeps the turny playfulness. 

There are a lot of options now in the meter plus wings but we could stand a range in the 920-950 range that are less extreme than the 900, 1000, or 920.  Not that area is the end all measure but the 920 is 1816 Projected.  What if we had a 920 that was 1650ish?  Thinner, a little less chord.  Or approaching it from the 1000 which has 1310 projected, what if we had that beefed up to 1500ish?  I think two middle options would be very well received by wingers. 

I don't think high aspect is the end all for winging and there is a huge range in what various brands are calling high aspect. 

I would still want the 1000 but there is a lot of fun to be had on light days and a few quick, turny middle sizes would be great. 

I am willing to leave a little top end speed on the table.  That downwinder video is very impressive in terms of speed but those guys are mowing right right through those swell.  It looks exciting for sure and if it was a race that would be unreal.  My guess is that most riders will want to slow that back a bit and enjoy the push.

This is also probably very sport specific.  When you think of surf foiling vs Wing foiling for instance in terms of the forces being applied (or not) in this video it is clear how different the needs are:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1abYwkEscE



« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 06:13:53 AM by Admin »

Phils

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2020, 07:57:43 AM »
A high performance tool like a hydrofoil is all about trade-offs so there will never be a foil that does everything well.  Therefore, the need for foil quivers for specific conditions. 

I just don't see speed being a big thing for wing foils, ultimately.  If you have the conditions to wing down wind super fast, I would think a paddle would be better to have than a wing.  And for foil racing, a kite is unbeatable. 

My ideal wing foil would have good early lift, pump well and glide well.  As I get more experience and get into bigger waves, quick turning will become more important.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2020, 10:15:43 AM »
I think some are missing the simple fact that you are going to over-foil and crash a lot doing ďwingingĒ downwinders (when the swell is good) until we get foils that CAN go faster, while still having the glide to SURF.

Just as tow-in guys have already seen it. Tow in guys have been forced to use kite foils. Wingers are starting to use kite foils. The manufacturers need to react and produce wings to meet this challenge.

Guys are already seeing this, in little ole Cocoa Beach on 6 ft days.

Itís not about racing, nobody is racing. Iím measuring speed to find those wings.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 10:18:28 AM by Dwight (DW) »

Thatspec

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Re: What do people want in a foil?
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2020, 12:51:07 PM »
Ken must have been late for an appointment in that Maliko video above. Not once do any of those guys grab the LE handle and relax.

A lot more of that in this one (already posted here somewhere)
https://youtu.be/fpuE8hKdHJA

Note the guy on the Ensis is clearly on a lower aspect, smaller, more surf oriented foil wing. Does a lot more pumping and quick turns.

The Axis 1010 would handle the conditions in either of these two videos with aplomb. Probably a better Maliko wing than for the Gorge with their longer period swell. Top and minimum speeds I've got no issue with, over-foiling in downwinding is always my fault and mainly a factor of fatigue.

After a long period up on the foil I tend to lose a sense of the vertical dimension. Just moving my feet a little and/or a couple of pumps brings it back into focus.

 


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