Author Topic: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it  (Read 2957 times)

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Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« on: June 06, 2020, 02:44:30 AM »
Windsurfers call it Switch Stance, Kiters call it toe side but whatever you call it, snagglefooting seems like the critical skill for downwinding and swell riding on the wing.  I see a lot of riders here who never switch feet.  It would be great if we could use  this area for posting vids, photos, tips (and pain meds) for this skill group here. 

Lots of good toeside riding in this one:

https://youtu.be/xJvPCIKCAwQ
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 03:13:49 AM by Admin »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2020, 03:44:50 AM »
Windsurfers call it Switch Stance, Kiters call it toe side but whatever you call it


No.

Switch stance is your wrong (Opposite of how you surf) foot forward, back to the wind.

Toe side is your correct (normal to surfing) foot forward, riding toes weighted, leaning face first against the wind.

Toe side switch is the hardest of all.

BTW, the secret to toe side has alway been lean into the wind face first more than you think.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 03:47:11 AM by Dwight (DW) »

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2020, 03:55:24 AM »
Hey Dwight,

In windsurfing freestyle, Switch Stance is the term for riding crossed up.  A lot of the moves are named that way.  That is probably where a lot of the name weirdness comes from.  You have a whole generation of windsurfers who know it as switch stance or switch foot.  There is a breed of windsurf freestyle moves that start switch stance.  It was named that way because the moves start on a reach and the feet are switched on that reach to begin.  Duck tack, Hoss Tack (push tack), Switch footed back loops, etc. and then a whole host of crazy double pop moves that the new school kids are doing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyLEWE6FMy0
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 04:17:25 AM by Admin »

Phils

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2020, 04:50:11 AM »
I avoid the term "switch stance" due to all the confusion.  I like "toeside".  Be well powered, have front foot directly centered and tilt body and board into the wind.  I don't know many who can ride toeside with weak leg forward well, hence we foot switch before gybe when riding weak foot forward but gybe without foot switch when riding strong foot forward.  Also important to not neglect riding weak foot forward (heelside) as this may be your first tack on many launches and upwind efficiency is much better than toeside (strong foot forward).

cnski

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2020, 04:57:33 AM »
Toeside is a good skill to have and is mandatory for freestyle/freeride kiting and winging, but it comes at a price. That price is progression. When you see rider who never switches their feet it's most likely because they can't. Once you learn to ride toeside and more importantly gybe to toeside you finally can turn around and not fall off foil. You now have graduated to foiling transitions and your sessions get much better. And it's a great achievement. But it can be a rut that many can't get out of. I've seen it alot. The foiling foot switch gybe/tack is and has always been the holy grail of foiling windsports. They can be so hard it's mind boggling. It literally took me years to learn them on a kite. If you're not crashing you're not learning. And crashing isn't fun. So learn to ride toeside but don't stop trying footswitch transitions.

PonoBill

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2020, 08:59:21 AM »
Damn, it's a tough day for my spelling skills. I spelled jibe as gybe for decades and then started seeing it spelled as jibe. Wikipedia provides a little help: "A jibe (US) or gybe (Britain) is a sailing maneuver...". Then there is Jibe, Jive, and Gibe. But I digress.

I've been trying to gybe while switching feet. My theory is that with my crappy left knee and touchy right hip I need to balance out the strain. Unfortunately with my crap balance switching feet in the middle of my jive gybe has led mostly to swimming opportunities, though I can pull it off sometimes with just a short touchdown. So I guess I'm going to work on toeside/heelside gybes and sailing heelside and then work on switching feet once I'm reaching again.

Every so often I think "wingfoiling is easy" and then I wake up.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

supkailua

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2020, 12:23:53 PM »
Admin asked for tips so here are mine.

In my opinion, wide boards help with the footswitch when jibing. Small narrow boards are fun because the smallest movements go right through to the foil, but when you have to make big movements like a foot change, the smaller board makes it harder to do.

I agree with cnski, it can be mind-boggling at first to figure it out, but then once you have it becomes easy and you look back and question why it seemed so out of reach for so long.

I read some advice about going downwind and finding the sweet spot where you can ride with both feet parallel, plus riding downwind switch stance. Once I had those two skills mastered it seemed easier to complete the jibe.

I found it helpful to NOT make big foot movements. I make a small foot movement, then another, and then another until my feet are in the position, and once I complete the turn I make a final foot movement to change into my most comfortable stance.

I also had to keep repeating to myself to keep my feet far apart and wide. Initially, I would fall off when my feet were too close together, but by keeping them far apart in both length and width I had better board control. This becomes even more important if you want to jibe on the swell as you need that front foot forward to keep the board down as you are coming down the swell.

I also found I needed speed to stay up through the turn. Even now I sometimes switch my feet to start the jibe, and I realize my speed is too slow, so I stay in my switch foot position and head back into the wind waiting for a gust to gain speed, and then once I have the speed I do my jibe. This is especially critical in the very lightest winds. In high winds, you can do anything and you have enough power in the wing to recover and stay up, and the lightest winds with a 6 wing you can only get enough speed sometimes by pumping the board and wing and waiting for the gust to give you some speed and then making your turn.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2020, 12:46:43 PM »
If we cannot decide what switch stance means, then I donít know what anyone is talking about when giving advice.

obxDave

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2020, 03:52:46 PM »
Windsurfers call it Switch Stance, Kiters call it toe side but whatever you call it, snagglefooting seems like the critical skill for downwinding and swell riding on the wing.  I see a lot of riders here who never switch feet.  It would be great if we could use  this area for posting vids, photos, tips (and pain meds) for this skill group here. 

Lots of good toeside riding in this one:

https://youtu.be/xJvPCIKCAwQ

Guess Iím confused as well. Is the intent of the thread about riding toeside or switching feet, or both? 

PonoBill

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2020, 04:52:30 PM »
All three of course. Let's come up with some terminology we all agree with. Old windsurfing terms don't matter except where they make sense, it's a new sport.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

clay

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2020, 05:25:29 PM »
Toeside and heelside are terms that make sense to me, and also strong side or natural side equally make sense and seem the least confusing.

My approach to wingdinging is wave/bump riding and even if I progess to the holy grail of being able to ride unnatural I doubt I would ever be able to surf waves this way or it would feel really awkward and kooky.  My only incentive to ride heelside "switch" on my weakside is to be able to go further upwind so I get more distance to then surf downwind.

To play devil's advocate the really good kitefoilers I see wingdinging often ride powered all the time (natural and unnatural), they never or rarely chase down a good bump and then ride it like a wave fully depowered.  They can fly circles around me but can't or won't do any snappy turns or "hacks" or s turns.

All my videos so far are heavy on toeside because I can't ride switch/unnatural, 2 of my latest:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CA04aBbjg5c/


https://www.instagram.com/p/CBBR9qlD_C5/
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

obxDave

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2020, 06:41:55 PM »
All three of course. Let's come up with some terminology we all agree with. Old windsurfing terms don't matter except where they make sense, it's a new sport.
Ok, got it :)

To play devil's advocate the really good kitefoilers I see wingdinging often ride powered all the time (natural and unnatural), they never or rarely chase down a good bump and then ride it like a wave fully depowered.  They can fly circles around me but can't or won't do any snappy turns or "hacks" or s turns.
Not that Iím a good kite foiler, but I practice the one handed depowered  bump pump thing any chance I get......(even if I suck at it ::) ).........with my luffed Duotone flailing away!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 07:12:06 PM by obxDave »

Phils

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2020, 12:57:38 AM »
Windsurfers call it Switch Stance, Kiters call it toe side but whatever you call it, snagglefooting seems like the critical skill for downwinding and swell riding on the wing.  I see a lot of riders here who never switch feet.  It would be great if we could use  this area for posting vids, photos, tips (and pain meds) for this skill group here. 

Lots of good toeside riding in this one:

https://youtu.be/xJvPCIKCAwQ

Guess Iím confused as well. Is the intent of the thread about riding toeside or switching feet, or both?
Original post was about riding toeside.  There is some confusion because of "switch stance" and "switching feet" which are 2 completely different things.  I think the only truly ambiguous term being used is "switch stance".  To me "switch stance" means weak foot forward; to others it means "toeside" and I guess it could also mean "changing feet".  That is why I think it best to not use the term "switch stance" and instead use "toeside" and "weak side".  In that way, when people write "switching feet" or "switching my stance", it becomes clearer that they mean putting the other foot forward.  Also, in general when I see "toeside", I assume it means "toeside with strong foot forward" because  it is rare for someone to ride toeside with weak foot forward.  And likewise, when someone says "I was riding weak side", I assume the mean "heelside with weak foot forward". 

obxDave

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2020, 01:30:58 AM »
Admin asked for tips so here are mine.

I found it helpful to NOT make big foot movements. I make a small foot movement, then another, and then another until my feet are in the position, and once I complete the turn I make a final foot movement to change into my most comfortable stance.

I also had to keep repeating to myself to keep my feet far apart and wide. Initially, I would fall off when my feet were too close together, but by keeping them far apart in both length and width I had better board control. This becomes even more important if you want to jibe on the swell as you need that front foot forward to keep the board down as you are coming down

Hmmmm, interesting. Guess we all have a different approach, but itís all good.  The longer Iíve been winging the more narrow (fore-aft) my stance has gotten. Nothing preplanned, just evolved. I suppose it increases my pitch sensitivity to shifting weight forward or back a wee bit, but it also seems to reduce all that muscle burn I get from a wide stance,......a critical factor for us ole-guy types :o.  And way  less pitch gyration to deal with when switching. Sometimes Iíll do a little ďpitch-upĒ and switch right at the crest to minimize any altitude loss (standard kitefoil protocol), or in chop where my stance is a wee bit wider, Iíll use a crest of a bump to achieve something similar. I only use ďsmall movementsĒ if my switch didnít end up where I wanted it to.

https://youtu.be/zfxMqF9tR5M

I dug up a recent kitefoiling session video (I don't seem to do as much of that any more) just to see how my stance varies. Surprisingly close considering the huge difference in board size. Guess my legs just gravitate to doin the same thing........

https://youtu.be/eAwD0j8ASFY
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 02:31:50 AM by obxDave »

obxDave

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Re: Switch Stance, Toeside, Crossed Up, You name it
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2020, 02:35:11 AM »
Admin asked for tips so here are mine.

I found it helpful to NOT make big foot movements. I make a small foot movement, then another, and then another until my feet are in the position, and once I complete the turn I make a final foot movement to change into my most comfortable stance.

I also had to keep repeating to myself to keep my feet far apart and wide. Initially, I would fall off when my feet were too close together, but by keeping them far apart in both length and width I had better board control. This becomes even more important if you want to jibe on the swell as you need that front foot forward to keep the board down as you are coming down

Hmmmm, interesting. Guess we all have a different approach, but itís all good.  The longer Iíve been winging the more narrow (fore-aft) my stance has gotten. Nothing preplanned, just evolved. I suppose it increases my pitch sensitivity to shifting weight forward or back a wee bit, but it also seems to reduce all that muscle burn I get from a wide stance,......a critical factor for us ole-guy types :o.  And way  less pitch gyration to deal with when switching. Sometimes Iíll do a little ďpitch-upĒ and switch right at the crest to minimize any altitude loss (standard kitefoil protocol), or in chop where my stance is a wee bit wider, Iíll use a crest of a bump to achieve something similar. I only use ďsmall movementsĒ if my switch didnít end up where I wanted it to.

https://youtu.be/zfxMqF9tR5M

I dug up my only recent kitefoiling session video (I don't seem to do as much of that any more) just to see how my stance varies these days.   Surprisingly close considering the huge difference in board size. Guess my legs just gravitate to doin the same thing........

https://youtu.be/eAwD0j8ASFY

 


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