Author Topic: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)  (Read 1450 times)

GRVN

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To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« on: May 29, 2020, 08:39:17 AM »
Ok so Hello everyone!. I have been shaping and glassing for about 15 years and am very comfortable there. Vacuum bagging.... not so much. I can do it but have a trip coming up and wanted to see if it is worth it. I only prone foil and am wanting to make a supfoil for downwinding the gorge. 6'2 x 27 x 5.5 either 1.5 or 2lb eps(I can get any block here)

Option1
 do a carbon vacbag layup.
-what schedule?
-Is the price worth it? Is it that much lighter?

Option2
 Do an Sglass hand lam.
-I am a good laminator with over 500 glass jobs
-sglass is cheap compare to carbon
-this is way less work for me
-how much heavier wil this actually be
-Sglass is stiff but not as stiff as carbon
-will this be too heavy?

Option3
innegra under sglass handlam
I have no idea but heard it can be done.


All in all sglass would be way easier for me but am worried about weight and stiffness. I have to buy the vac and carbon is not cheap. If weight is close I would go sglass route. I am inserting stringers for the boxes to anchor too to prevent box destruction.

SupSimcoe

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 08:56:07 AM »
I did a fair amount of research on this and S glass has a lot of great properties. Carbon can be brittle when compressed and is best in tension. For the costs I would not bother with Carbon unless you need to have the lightest. if you want more durability then I would use S glass.

you can always poor mans vacuum

I have had issues with innegra without a vacuum
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PonoBill

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 09:00:59 AM »
You can certainly get in the ballpark of vacuum bagging for weight using table wetting and/or Jimmy Lewis' "poor man's bagging" technique. The biggest benefit of bagging IMNSHO is better incorporation of the lamination layers. For me, it's a way to replace skill and experience with hardware. If you have 500 glass jobs under your belt you certainly have the experience I lack. I've been able to make some very light parts and modifications doing table wetting, and it works just as well for carbon as it does for glass. If you have a very smooth, hard surface table you can wet out the carbon as a sheet and then cut the reinforcement elements with a razor blade. I cut until I start having some strands that don't get cut on the first stroke and then change blades.

There's a video around somewhere of a great glasser who works for Nelson Boardworks in Maui cutting table-wet carbon patches on the table to make a Bill Foote Maliko 14. He makes it look like it's simple, but he's a magician. I forget his nickname.

I'd look at carbon patches for the areas that need reinforcement--rails, standing spots, track/Tuttle, etc. I do carbon over the bogged foam, and then glass over the carbon.

I only tried innegra once and made a complete hairball out of it. It wound up wadded on the ground outside my shop. DW uses it as I recall, and he could undoubtedly tell you the tricks.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 09:05:50 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Surfside

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2020, 09:16:04 AM »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2020, 10:05:12 AM »
One fatal flaw with the plan...where to find WIDE S glass. When SUP died, manufacturers stopping running it.


GRVN

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2020, 10:27:39 AM »
One fatal flaw with the plan...where to find WIDE S glass. When SUP died, manufacturers stopping running it.

I have found it in 38", 50" and 60" in 6oz and 9oz

Here are some I have found if it helps:
https://sweetcomposites.com/Fiberglass.html
https://compositeenvisions.com/composite-reinforcement-fabrics/fiberglass-cloth-mat-roving/?sort=featured&page=2
https://www.carbonfiberglass.com/composite-materials/Fiberglass-S2-Glass-Cloth

GRVN

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2020, 10:29:17 AM »
You can certainly get in the ballpark of vacuum bagging for weight using table wetting and/or Jimmy Lewis' "poor man's bagging" technique. The biggest benefit of bagging IMNSHO is better incorporation of the lamination layers. For me, it's a way to replace skill and experience with hardware. If you have 500 glass jobs under your belt you certainly have the experience I lack. I've been able to make some very light parts and modifications doing table wetting, and it works just as well for carbon as it does for glass. If you have a very smooth, hard surface table you can wet out the carbon as a sheet and then cut the reinforcement elements with a razor blade. I cut until I start having some strands that don't get cut on the first stroke and then change blades.

There's a video around somewhere of a great glasser who works for Nelson Boardworks in Maui cutting table-wet carbon patches on the table to make a Bill Foote Maliko 14. He makes it look like it's simple, but he's a magician. I forget his nickname.

I'd look at carbon patches for the areas that need reinforcement--rails, standing spots, track/Tuttle, etc. I do carbon over the bogged foam, and then glass over the carbon.

I only tried innegra once and made a complete hairball out of it. It wound up wadded on the ground outside my shop. DW uses it as I recall, and he could undoubtedly tell you the tricks.

Yeah I have used a table before for wetting out pieces for vertical application. I have never done it for a board but I am beting would be light er for sure.

GRVN

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2020, 10:32:19 AM »
What would be an appropriate layup schedule for the 10oz or 6oz s glass if I went that route?

GRVN

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2020, 10:44:58 AM »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2020, 10:53:12 AM »
Those are a joke. You paying those prices for S?

The surfboard SUP s2 was 42 and 44 wide 4 oz for $9 to $10 a yard back when it was easy to get.


PonoBill

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2020, 11:04:57 AM »
I love aircraft spruce, great company, but I only use them for stuff I can't get anywhere else. Like any niche general supplier company, their prices are always 2X since they don't have the individual product volume of a more focused company.

I know no professional, or for that matter, anyone who cared more about appearance would never do this, but I've never minded lapping narrower glass in the middle. Think of it as an extra stringer.

When I do table layup, which is almost always these days, I squeegee the cloth firmly, to the point that it looks almost dry. I did a little destructive testing on the method and find the strength of table layup to be a little greater than traditional wetting out--and a lot lighter. I was initially worried that the laminations would not be as well incorporated and might delaminate. I was wrong, it's better incorporated, probably because the glass matrix is not floating around in the resin.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

GRVN

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2020, 11:07:15 AM »
The nelson video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLTXB5wNfa0&feature=emb_logo

that is good stuff and easily in my ball park

GRVN

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2020, 11:16:25 AM »
I love aircraft spruce, great company, but I only use them for stuff I can't get anywhere else. Like any niche general supplier company, their prices are always 2X since they don't have the individual product volume of a more focused company.

I know no professional, or for that matter, anyone who cared more about appearance would never do this, but I've never minded lapping narrower glass in the middle. Think of it as an extra stringer.

When I do table layup, which is almost always these days, I squeegee the cloth firmly, to the point that it looks almost dry. I did a little destructive testing on the method and find the strength of table layup to be a little greater than traditional wetting out--and a lot lighter. I was initially worried that the laminations would not be as well incorporated and might delaminate. I was wrong, it's better incorporated, probably because the glass matrix is not floating around in the resin.

Yeah not cheap I agree with the dry weave I used to do really dry lams with pressure and flick my wrist hard to being tension into it when doing the laps. The thump test after a board is complete tells the story to me.

I also wouldn't mind lapping the glass if that is the only option I end up with. A hybrid carbon/sglass seems pretty doable and I can start vac bagging later after my trip. Any thought on layup? double 6ozS top and bottom with carbon tape stingers and patch?

surfcowboy

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2020, 04:14:32 AM »
Charlie from the UK has done all his boards in dual 6oz E. I just finished one as well with that layup and Iím really happy with it. So dual 6S would be fine Iím sure. We are lighter so if you are a bigger guy, use carbon patches for standing area etc.

We will see about the durability of my layup lol. Iím about 493 glass jobs behind you. Welcome to the board and thanks for the source links.

GRVN

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Re: To carbon or not to carbon(please help)
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2020, 07:19:10 AM »
Thank cowboy I am about 180 lbs. Glenn Pang has been making xps foil boards recently I gave up on that years ago due to delam but they are having some good experience currently. I guess I just need to bite the bullet.

 


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