Author Topic: High end wind range question  (Read 2391 times)

GL

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High end wind range question
« on: May 04, 2020, 07:03:02 AM »
I have a 4.2 Slingwing and a 5 Wasp. I like them both and I am going to get a 3 meter. Yesterday I went out on the wasp and the wind was about 15 knots on the low end. Shortly after that it picked up and the gusts were going a few knots above 20. I know the suggested wind range on the 5 wasp is ideally up to 20 and then more expert riders beyond that. What I found was that I did not want to be sheeted in but rather sheeted out to cruise at a controlled pace (that was also easier on the arms) on the large Infinity 99 foil. When I was slightly sheeted out in the large gusts the wing would back wind and be harder to control.  I went in and changed to the Slingwing and the wind picked up more and was gusting over 25 knots. With it I could sheet out and the wing remained easy to control and I could play on the swells and S turn all while comfortable, no backwinding. My question is to those that have tried smaller sizes like 4 and 3 that do not have the inflated trailing edges, is it normal behaviour for the wing to backwind when lightly sheeted in when used at the top end of the wings wind range? By the way this is not a criticism of the wasp, I really like it from about 12 to 20 knots but rather since I will be using the new wing in strong gusty winds wanted to know what others had experienced. I realize that I could just get a 3 metre Slingwing but plan on also using it with a mountain board and like the shorter wing span of ones like the wasp so it will easier not to drag a wing tip on  the ground.

ninja tuna

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2020, 08:26:27 AM »
I have the 5m gong, version 1.  Granted I am new to this backwind term, but after reading about it I cannot say I have experienced it and I have used that wing from 15-35 mph. Maybe I have and did not realize it.   I am about 20lbs heavier than you at 190-195.  When I have used it in gusty conditions, which has been most of the time, I am always just adjusting the angle of the wing to keep it full vs keeping it in the same position. I have had my 7m out when the wind picked up and basically just had to do more of the mary poppins flying, as Dwight calls it, but it still worked fine for cruising because I was lazy and did not want to deal with deflating one and inflating another.  I finally did when the wind got to the 25 mph range.

I know this is not what you are asking for but curious about the flying angle of the wind and backwinding.  That wasp seems pretty stable from the videos I have seen where people are just holding it behind them surfing.

And if someone can explain this in more detail to how this happening.   The way I understand it is holding the wing in one position, the wind wraps around via eddie flows  onto the back of the wing.  To me it seems you just adjust the angle to fill the wing.

GL

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2020, 08:55:24 AM »
In the winds that I am talking about the wasp will hang on the leading edge handle and just float with little pull no problem. Where I was having an issue was where I still wanted to be sheeted in with just a bit of power. In the higher winds I could still use it if I sheeted in enough that it did not backwind (the wind pushing down on the top of the wing and then surging up again over an over). The problem was then that it was providing more power than I wanted, not that I could not control it but rather that it was making my arms tire out to quickly. If I then reduce the amount of pressure on my arms then the wing started to flap up and down again as it back winds. I tried using the Mary Poppins approach but that did not work and if I tried holding the wing vertical it would work if I headed hard upwind. With less upwind angle then I got to much power again. With the Slingwing I could use a modified Mary Poppins approach and it sat there nicely and I could adjust the amount of pull to be comfortable with no flapping. It may be that I am just not strong enough to handle the power that that you can.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 08:57:00 AM by GL »

ninja tuna

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2020, 09:18:15 AM »
Thanks for that explanation.  Another question then.  Handles.  The wasp has handles all the way up the strut and the slingwing does not,  I hated that.  With handle #1 being nearest the LE.  In higher winds, I tend to use handles 1 and 4, plenty of power.  In lower winds I will go 2 and 5. Sometimes switching to 2 and 4 or 1 and 4 once up and flying.  This way, I grab the power to lift off and then move my hands forward to control while flying.  I try and keep my arms straight.  I call my back arm my accelerator, whether the wind lulls or I go to high upwind,   a quick few pulls and it brings my power back.  Now because the sling wing has no rearward handles, does that maybe explain the easier control, kinda just thinkin out loud.

PonoBill

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2020, 10:34:06 AM »
I use my 6M F-one in much higher winds than reasonable. I like the torque. I Mary Poppins the shit out of it though, in part because its so wide its easy to dip a tip and flip the lip. <<Geez>>.

I rarely hold the wing vertical, I try to make them fly as wings as much as possible. Sheeting hard on the bigger wings creates a lot of balance issues for me in gusts, and I don't see much benefit--I don't go faster or have better control. I'm getting more aggressive in jibes, and I find having a lot of power in a wing held more overhead makes that work better.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

VB_Foil

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2020, 10:59:10 AM »
I have a 3.5 and 5.0 M Swings by F-one.  I was out today in similar conditions to what you described and also took my 5M out with a big 2400 wing for the first go.  I was getting a lot of backwinding and flapping of the trailing edge as I tried to feather the wing to not get taken out by the 30mph gusts. 

After I changed to the 3.5M, it was great!  No flapping, just full comfortable power. 
I’m a 5’9” 65kg rider:

Boards:
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   4'11" 60L Armstrong Wing/Sup
  
  

Foils: Armstrong HA525, HS625, HA725, HA925, HS1050, HA1125, HS1250, HA1325
Wings: BRM 2M & 3M, FreeWing Nitro 4M, OR 5M & 7M Glide

Dwight (DW)

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2020, 11:37:14 AM »
GL,

What you describe is normal, when over powered. Just going to a smaller wing solves everything.

It has nothing to do with the brand you ride.

You see people doing some crazy shit. Doesn’t mean you have to. Last week I was lit on a 3.6m and having the best session of my life, while another guy was riding a 6m.

GL

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2020, 12:14:21 PM »
Ninja Tuna, I do not  think that the handles are what makes the Slingwing handle the way it does. It is a little bit higher aspect and the whole structure is firmer. Of course it is smaller that the 5 metre wasp as well. If I had to guess it is the combination of those two things that makes it so stable at the high end of it's wind range. The wasp has much more low end and I again am guessing that is part of why the high is a bit sacrificed. Although those are all guesses as I know little about wing design. I do not have a problem with the slingwing handle placement. That might be because I do not mind having one of my arms bent while flying. I rarely have them both straight. I am just more comfortable that way.

Ponobill, I agree with you in that I prefer to hold the wing higher rather than upright like a windsurf sail. I have tried both a lot and prefer the higher position with a bit more lean in lighter winds. I probably lose some upwind but still have no problem with going upwind when I need to.

VB_foil and DW thanks for the replies. It sounds like I will be OK with a 3 metre with the shorter wing span as long as I do not try to ride it at the top of it's wind range. Now just have to decide which one.

Admin

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2020, 01:20:54 PM »
Ponobill, I agree with you in that I prefer to hold the wing higher rather than upright like a windsurf sail. I have tried both a lot and prefer the higher position with a bit more lean in lighter winds. I probably lose some upwind but still have no problem with going upwind when I need to.

I am not seeing this as an either/or thing.  Overhead is useful for bearing off and going downwind and low, locked and loaded is great for reaching and pointing upwind.  I see most riders using both of these to various degrees and all of the in between positions as well.   

Things get much more limited for me when I am really overpowered.  I know I am getting really smoked when any overhead variation wants to pull me upwards so it feels hard to keep solid contact with my feet to the board and lowering the wing is only really working going high upwind.  It is very hard for me to sheet out with control at those times and am am only now getting started on using a single hand on the front handle for full downwind flagging and riding (which I think with time will be the ultimate answer).  I am feeling pretty good going downwind now when the wing is in its range but some wild stuff starts happening when I am maxed out.  Fixing that is my current goal.

I really prefer to be lightly powered when it is crazy out as long as the wind range is not too great.  It sucks to be overpowered but it is worse to be standing still and then getting blasted by monster gusts.  :)

One additional thing.  Inflating to very hard makes a big difference in overpowered manageability.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 02:18:09 PM by Admin »

deja vu

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2020, 02:18:13 PM »
At the 4:35 mark in the video below there is at explanation as to how to control the Wasp when overpowered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r09mLhVuuBo&t=8s
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 02:22:21 PM by deja vu »

Solent Foiler

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Re: High end wind range question
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2020, 02:51:52 AM »
 
... Overhead is useful for bearing off and going downwind and low, locked and loaded is great for reaching and pointing upwind...

...One additional thing.  Inflating to very hard makes a big difference in overpowered manageability.

Agree with this.

Unless going downwind I maintain a pretty vertical wing all the time and feather the power by pulling on my front arm to open up the wing. Keep a strong core and a defensive stance. With I've used this technique in over 30 knots on my 4m (I don't weigh much either) , and although I'm in 'control' it's survival conditions, isn't pretty, but would still call it fun. Wing's certainly backwinding/fluttering/flapping but it's a soft sail so it's not really an issue. I'm forced to go pretty slowly through the water at points too just to keep that control. Just have to accept that your riding is going to be compromised if you're totally maxed out.
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
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Axis ART 799, 899, 1099, HPS 880 US & CS Adv fuse, 85cm mast
Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm and 65cm mast
Takuma RS 5.1, 4.3, 3.5

 


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