Author Topic: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?  (Read 3367 times)

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 23423
    • View Profile
Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« on: April 28, 2020, 10:03:39 PM »
I posted this on Facebook in response to a post by Tim Ryan--the Strand Leper, but it makes sense to me to see what you folks think:

I thought about this all day, in between screwing up my most recent project. This semi-bitchy response kept popping up in my head: "Well what would YOU do to get things going again. And then I realized that it might be a useful thought. What would we do? I'm a very conservative Republican--not in the sense of these folks who think what the Republican party has devolved into represents anything like conservative politics--but in the classical sense of conservatism. The notion that the bigger government gets, the more stupid, clumsy, and incompetent it is. Our current federal government is completely incapable of managing this crisis at the local level. The state governors seem to be acting along party lines, like their head is either firmly up Trump's ass, or firmly up whoever the fuck is leading the democrats. I can't tell, it's just too unpleasant to try to parse. But back to the idea: We can stop saying “they should do something” and build a plan to actually do something. We could do what the government won’t do—talk to small business owners, restaurant owners, bar owners, workers—and ask them how they would handle coming back to something like normal, given the simple reality that doing so in a sloppy manner will probably mean our local area will become a full-on COVID hot spot.

As a group, humans can be very smart. As a mob we devolve to the lowest common denominator like those dipshits organizing protests. Here’s the thing—if you protest, you’re asking the folks “in charge” to do something different. Fuck that. If we built a better plan, a better way to handle this virus on a local, one-on-one basis and executed on that plan, why would we care what “they” think?

It would have to be good. It would have to involve real research, the inclusion of healthcare workers, the examination and real research into any tools available to us to do a better job of this.

Honestly, looking at the current corrupt clusterfuck that is the federal government, this is probably our only choice. “They” aren’t going to do anything that isn’t easy or that doesn’t represent opportunities for them.

What do you people think? Can we put together a group to start figuring out how to do this? If we do, where and how should we organize it? Facebook would not be my first choice—too much control in the hands of people I wouldn't trust with a case of my beer.

Let’s talk.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

blueplanetsurf

  • Site Sponsor
  • Teahupoo Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 1764
  • Hawaii's SUP HQ
    • View Profile
    • Blue Planet Surf
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2020, 01:48:37 AM »
Ok Bill, I'll start it off with my observations

In Hawaii, it looks like we will be able to eliminate the virus by totally isolating ourselves and shutting down air travel, which is what New Zeland is doing.  For Hawaii that is not a long term solution since our economy is highly dependent on the money tourists bring to the islands but as soon as we open up a second wave is likely.  I read that in Japan they don't let travelers leave the airport until they have tested negative for the virus, I think that should be considered.

At Blue Planet we are still closed to the public since we are considered a "non-essential" business but we are still taking phone orders and web orders and business has recently picked up significantly for us.  My staff is working long hours and we have been super busy with orders, the last few days we have been selling more boards than on Black Friday.  With beach parks open again and paddling and surfing being some of the few things you can do to exercise and have fun outdoors safely, demand has been surprisingly strong.  I guess people are going stir crazy from being cooped up, they have time on their hands, and stimulus checks in their pockets.  I talked to a friend who owns a bike shop and his business is booming as well.  Many businesses are suffering and sinking with no money coming in and I really feel for them but it's not all doom and gloom, change also brings opportunities.
With new cases way down in Hawaii, people are also feeling more optimistic again but we can't let our guard down too quickly, it's not over by a long shot.
When someone orders gear over the phone or online (and yes people are actually making use of all the information we have on our website and in videos) they can have it shipped or choose local pickup.  If they pick it up at our shop, we have them wait outside and we bring the gear out to them and help load it in or on the car.  This protects our staff and the customers from close contact and actually works quite well, people like the service and it's quite efficient.  We might keep operating that way even after we are allowed to re-open.  Things will not get back to normal quickly.  Forget about handshakes, hugs and kisses and get used to the new normal of social distancing, regular handwashing, wearing face masks, and minimizing direct social interaction and gatherings. 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 01:52:30 AM by blueplanetsurf »
Robert Stehlik
Blue Planet Surf Shop, Honolulu
Hawaii's SUP HQ
http://www.blueplanetsurf.com

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5379
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2020, 05:44:24 AM »
Bill,
Interested to see what the original post was.  Was it about longer term management or shorter term end of "shut down"?   End of shutdown seems like it is already underway and as you mentioned certain regions are not heeding the 14 days of decline standard set by the administration.  It looks like that process will roll out on per area sentiment and with whatever regard for the current data those in power in those locations have.

Current testing is producing 15 to 20 % false negative and if correct only represents a current negative (constant retesting would be required).  Doing anything information based requires massive testing.  This point is being pushed hard by the medical community but I don't see it as a priority yet. 


Wetstuff

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2031
    • View Profile
    • Wetstuff
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2020, 06:51:24 AM »
I am far more pessimistic. When our chosen 'Leader' said; "We are not a shipping clerk." We were clearly in the COVID c'hitter.

I frankly feel we in the States are on a fairly high-speed train and have already past 'Best Days'. I think I am fortunate my last stop is not all that far off.   I too, consider myself a conservative but am continually disheartened by both sides. I have seen 'whites-only' drinking fountains, all the wars we fought and did not win, how happily use "illegal alien" labor throughout the economy but dispose of them without care or compensation if they get injured (a form of slavery), how a fighter plane costs $44,000 an hour to fly, how something called 'Private Equity' has become a termite infestation in our economy, we cannot build a bridge, airport or fix a road, we exported all textile, furniture, machine work and other jobs to Asia to allow industry to give the top 1% 'extraordinary' incomes, Big Ag forced Ethanol, school lunches and toxins upon society ..all along maintaining a subsidies tap thru disproportionate representation in Congress ...I am tired of thinking of things that bother me.

To put a cherry on it - we choose perhaps the singular most-gross-individual-ever to head our country.  If you break him down into traditional conservative values; family, church, honesty, modesty, others...  Trump takes every single one and blows them up with a nuclear force. A former liberal, now 'Conservative' - who personally presents himself as if he and his family are the physical embodiment and heirs to Louis XIV.   

It's exhausting  ...and, we are being chased like ants out of a hive by COVID 19.  Holy C'hit!

Jim
Atlantis Mistress .. Blue Planet MultiTasker ..   Atlantis Venom

ericmichaels

  • Waikiki Status
  • *
  • Posts: 49
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2020, 08:23:05 AM »
Well, it is a difficult problem but there certainly were better choices that could have been made that would not have led us to 50,000 dead....and that number is probably closer to 100,000 in reality.
Poor choices in the early weeks put us in the situation where it appears we have no good options. But even so, there are things to do going forward.

What could have been done: We had the model response right in front of us in South Korea. They mobilized massive testing immediately. In 17 days they had created a test and were doing tens of thousands of tests a day. They did this before we were hit hard.
We could have simply copied that model. Used their test. But no, we are the US. We can do it better right? We don't depend on SKorea for guidance. So we decided we needed our own tests and we screwed that up royally for 6 weeks. That was deadly. As we look back on this and learn the extent of the incompetence in government, Feb 2020, for the US, will go down as the height of incompetence.
We also lost that time in ordering supplies and gearing up.

What can we do going forward to open up?
Much more serious education about exactly how to avoid getting the virus AND avoid giving the virus. So many people still do not understand how to avoid getting sick. We have learned much but there is no strong competent, reasonable  voice simply educating us. Fauci could but he is required to tiptoe and dance to not upset the king. He needs to be using the briefings to do webinars and demos on how to not get it, not wasting time trying to speculate on how long for a vaccine or correct misinformation. He should be telling people that you must wash your hands before LEAVING your home, as well as when you come home. Too much emphasis has been on how not to get it and none on how not to give it.

Avoiding getting sick does not require staying home. It requires wearing masks and washing hands and keeping distance. Not touching each other and not touching our own faces. That is doable outside the home in most places. It doesn't even require gloves although maybe they remind you not to touch your face. I hypothesize that glasses probably provide more protection than gloves. I think the virus probably easily enters our system through eyes but no one talks about that. I could be dead wrong but it seems like something to look at after they look at injecting disinfectant.

So, yes, massive testing but we have shown our govt cannot accomplish that. As soon as we learned in late Feb that asymptomatic people are contagious, the only good answer was massive testing. We still have not taken testing seriously as a government. I think it is obvious that the CDC and Fed government were a huge hindrance to our testing capabilities, not a help.

So given lack of testing, the answer is requiring masks outside the home. Creating hand washing stations in more places. Every store who wants to open should be required to hand a wipe to every person walking in. We have a few stores here which hand out gloves, masks, and hand sanitizer to every customer on the way in, Microcenter is one. Obviously this requires supplies of wipes and masks which goes back to the lack of preparation in point one but it is doable. Trying to buy masks and wipes for everyone is more doable than trying to buy a fricking ventilator for everyone.

And obviously there were other options like Sweden's approach. You know you are going to take the hit so take it and get to herd immunity. It is a gamble and maybe that was not the right approach for the US. It took a very gutsy call and we don't have the leadership for that here. But it will probably pay off for them for the next year while we all still try to avoid the virus and rack up deaths. I posted on Reddit about the idea of purposely infecting myself at the very beginning of this when the 5 cases and each case had their own floor at the hospital and everyone thought I was nuts. I kind of wish I had done it but immunity is not clear.

I do think there are options.

SUP Leave

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 485
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 08:28:47 AM »
Good thread idea. Trump is not a conservative. Not even close.

I live in WA state, our leadership couldn't manage a 2 car funeral. Setting up and running a "test and trace" program would really just be a binky for the populous. They might set it up, fund it, and get it staffed but the chances of getting meaningful data before we open is nil. However, saying they have it up and running would go a long way to making people feel better.

Live with and accept a couple facts:

1- When we "reopen" there will be a spike in cases. That's reality. By next spring, 300k Covid deaths in the US is completely plausible.
2- Reopening will happen with or  without Gov't approval. Governors are opening based on public sentiment, just chasing the narrative.

To ericmichaels ideas. Yes, the gov't should realize we are reopening without them and should pivot to providing as much guidance as they can to protect ourselves, and others. Stop lecturing, nannying and scaring. Start educating and inspiring.

To the point of the thread. No, we should not wait for "them". Every business is different, every activity is different and most businesses - especially small ones can figure out a way to operate safely probably within a single work day. The rule for re-opening could simply be: Write an operations plan, show how you protect staff and customers, and send it to your local health department. Post it on your website, on your wall and go back to work. My businesses all have them already, they were easy to do and implement.

There is an occupation called Industrial Hygienist, and if your business needs help with a plan, you can hire an IH consultant in just a few hours and get their seal of approval to submit to the health department.

Eliminate the words "non-essential" and "essential". They are subjective and create "othering" among our society. They make us work against each other. As a population we have to remember that CV is out there, and will be for the foreseeable future. We need to determine how to protect the weak, while supporting our own health and communities.
Make paddleboarding great again!

Dusk Patrol

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • PNW
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2020, 10:10:29 AM »

A short detour for consideration:

The premise of this thread seems to be 'how do we, as efficiently as possible, get back on the same path that got us into this mess'.
 
It's akin to a leading question, assuming the status quo ante is the ideal.

Sure, at a micro level reopening business will remedy a lot of short term hurt. And maybe that's the limited scope of this thread.  But but a macro level, returning to a world of economic growth for growth's sake will only increase the likelihood of the next big thing, virus or otherwise.

Yes, growth is necessary to the continuation of our present economy, but one thing we can do at the individual level is to be open minded and consider altering our collective path towards economic growth at all costs. We are currently experiencing one of those costs. 
Bullet V2; RS 14x26; JL Destroyer 9'8; BluePlanet 9'4

SUP Leave

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 485
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2020, 10:45:04 AM »

A short detour for consideration:

The premise of this thread seems to be 'how do we, as efficiently as possible, get back on the same path that got us into this mess'.
 
It's akin to a leading question, assuming the status quo ante is the ideal.

Sure, at a micro level reopening business will remedy a lot of short term hurt. And maybe that's the limited scope of this thread.  But but a macro level, returning to a world of economic growth for growth's sake will only increase the likelihood of the next big thing, virus or otherwise.

Yes, growth is necessary to the continuation of our present economy, but one thing we can do at the individual level is to be open minded and consider altering our collective path towards economic growth at all costs. We are currently experiencing one of those costs. 

My thoughts are definitely short term, as I am currently steering small businesses through this mess -so I'm pretty myopic here.

To your point, are you talking about pulling back from the global economy (Nationalism?), or saying we as people should be more ready to embrace something other than capitalism?

I can't make the mental leap from economic growth to prevention of a natural phenomenon (not smart enough), but I am definitely interested in your thoughts on it.
Make paddleboarding great again!

Dusk Patrol

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
  • PNW
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2020, 12:03:30 PM »
I'm suggesting we as people should be more ready to embrace something other than unfettered capitalism.  (A better brain than mine, Warren Buffet, agrees.)

My use of the term 'growth for growth's sake' was as a proxy for this unfettered aspect.   And I'm not suggesting that capitalism be toned down by government regulation, but instead by peoples' mindsets and expectations.  Not to suggest people stop striving, but it is an acknowledgment of the truth of umpteen happiness surveys that genuine happiness is based on things other than material things, which form a significant component of the economic growth equation.

But back to the point of the connection between economic growth an the prevention of a natural phenomena (the virus). There is a credible argument that the intra-species transmission of the virus, and its rapid expansion across the earth's human population, is in large part due to human behaviors and humankind's impact on the earth's ecosystem.  Should that be defined as a natural phenomena?   What I'm suggesting is that we humans can tone down (not eliminate) our largely unquestioned adherence to the pursuit of economic growth, and do ourselves and our habitat a favor in the process. Example: the wet markets of the world are the very definition of capitalism.  Are they necessary? No... (maybe to the vested turtle and deer purveyors, but that's the coal miner/ transition over time issue).  Are the wet markets harmful? They are proving to be, yes.  (Not to mention to the animals.)  My own opinion is that humankind would be better off if the markets didn't exist.  Its not a radical thought.  Just a matter of efficiencies.  But this is pretty esoteric stuff when we need to put out the immediate fires, and open businesses. That's the world we live in. But this other stuff is not irrelevant.               

Highly recommend this article on related themes:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/03/19/health/coronavirus-human-actions-intl/index.html
« Last Edit: April 29, 2020, 12:09:39 PM by Dusk Patrol »
Bullet V2; RS 14x26; JL Destroyer 9'8; BluePlanet 9'4

SanoSlatchSup

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1018
  • San Clemente
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2020, 12:40:07 PM »
What do you people think? Can we put together a group to start figuring out how to do this? If we do, where and how should we organize it?
We've supposed to have already elected a group who supposedly represent us to do this. Why do you think simply putting together yet another group of varying ideas and agendas is going to be any different than the one(s) we already have?

Sure, it's easy to say let's put together a group of experts...but name any group of experts that doesn't operate as a whole, as anything other than the individual agendas and/or biases of each of its members. Don't know about you, but I've never been involved in a single group that ever had 100% consensus about anything.

So then we use "majority rules", which is the basis of the current elected groups we have now, and when those in the minority feel they've been slighted or those in the majority who think they had to compromise and only got a partial of their wishlist...they break off into sub-groups of "protestors", and we're right back where we are now with our current system you want to fix by creating another similar group.

—too much control in the hands of people I wouldn't trust with a case of my beer.
And where our troubles all start...mistrust. Unless you personally put together your own "group" you're not going to trust all of those in that new group, and there will be others who don't trust you...as is the case of all of our elected groups now.

As soon as this mistrust happens, those you trust and those that trust you will form a sub-group, and those who you don't trust along those who don't trust you will form another....kind of like we have right now in the two political parties that some of don't trust at all. Go figure.

Best we can do it let the virus run its course (as it will naturally do), and each of us do as we see best for our own situation. If you have risk factors that could make catching the Rona dangerous to your longterm being, well then shelter in place. If you feel as though you're healthy with a normal immune system, then head out where you see fit...with or w/o exposure gear.

But expecting a new group or anyone else individually will come up with a plan that all agree with...is like making a pizza that everyone will love. Some will love it all, some will like it with the exception of the green peppers, and some hate pizza no matter what you put on it. So I think you're simply creating another exercise in futility, and setting it yourself for failure...if you think some other group(s) can do any better than the dysfunctional ones we already have in place now trying to sort their way through it all, no matter how bad the train wreck of planning we're watching from the WH lawn daily.

JMO, OMMV.
Me: 6'1"/185...6'0" Kings Foil Board...6'0" Chelu Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

Tom

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2897
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2020, 01:30:35 PM »
The fact is, until there is a cure and a vaccine, we can't return to doing things as we did before. Until that happens we need to figure out how to live with CV19 with the lease negative impact. This doesn't only apply to the economy, it included everything we do: education, socializing, recreation, entertainment, voting, etc. My suggestion is, like SUP Leave stated, forget the terms 'essential' and 'non-essential'. Concentrate on what can we do that can be made safe. Playing golf, going bowling, and surfing can never be considered 'essential', but if they can be made safe from spreading CV19, they should be allowed. If the guy that runs a tattoo parlor wants to open up and he can revise his operation so that no one will be at risk, let him open. If a business is 'essential' but is risky, reduce it's risk to a minimum. If a business or service has to continue, such as a meatpacking, figure out how can it be run while it protects it's workers. There's no use in 'opening the economy' if it gets everyone infected and we have to close it again, making one step forward and two steps back does more harm than doing nothing.

clay

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 877
    • View Profile
    • www.clayisland.com
    • Email
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2020, 02:51:18 PM »
My approach is to start by asking questions:

What does health look like? 

How does a healthy human live day to day?

Does health come from wearing a mask and isolating from other humans, treating each other like lepers?

Washing ones hands tens times a day with microbiome destroying, eczema causing soap?

Eating food from who knows where, sprayed with how much toxic crap, animals that are treated with grotesque cruelty and fed horrific garbage?  How can food continue to be supplied to all the cities that have destroyed their local food sources, how do we eat in a concrete jungle?

Living separate form family, friends, neighbors?  In a house made of all kinds horrible toxic offgassing crap?

Breathing smog or conditioned air?  Walking in petroleum shoes on concrete, asphalt, and plastic floors?

Arming ourselves to the teeth and feeling consistent fear that "they" are going to get "us"?

Staring at screens for hours everyday?

Commuting alone in traffic several hours a day?  Going to a place most people hate, doing soul crushing work?

Pills, needles, surgery, x-rays, radiation, is this health "care"?

Toxic surfboards, toxic wetsuits, toxic leashes, toxic foils, toxic wings, is this the plan for a healthy life supporting ecosystem?

The people who disagree with me often say we need more of this type of "living".  Or we just need a vaccine and force everyone to get it, then all will be right with the world.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

Rider

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2020, 07:19:39 PM »
Foiling is so easy, even a Caveman can do it...... :)

surfcowboy

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3953
    • View Profile
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2020, 10:47:52 PM »
I’ll give you one thing. Growth is not the answer. When we were “great” out tax system didn’t look anything like it does now.

Unfettered growth has gotten us to a lot of bread for a few, and a lot of problems for everyone else. I say this as someone who benefits more than most from “the system.”

We’ve got to rethink some things. But in the meantime we’ve got to keep the wheels on the road for our businesses.

To those who say, “we can’t just change overnight” I note that it’s wild to watch oil crumble before our eyes. Sometimes we don’t get to decide when we change.

Wetstuff

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2031
    • View Profile
    • Wetstuff
Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2020, 06:39:39 AM »
Keep your eyes open...  My daughter works for UCSF and recently moved from the 'cold and damp city' to Marin County. She called to say; 'Just in time.'  ...there have been numerous food store break-ins in her former neighborhood and one incident—a line of people waiting to get in a food store had a car of guys pull up and relieve them of their phone and $$ by gunpoint.

There's a little, low-watt, AM radio station in Delaware where Hillary's e-mails and George Soros comes up at least once a week. These people are angry, armed, and upset with a lot of doomsday prepper talk.  They are happy to ignore that all the farm labor and chicken plant workers in the area are illegal, but now—nervous because these same workers carry loads of Covid. 

The problem for the sick workers is the only obligated medical care they have is the ER. Single men who send remittances to MEX, Guatemala, etc tend to live in clusters.  Only a few states have Workman's comp statutes to expressly include undocumented immigrants—Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas.

Now that food plants are considered 'essential' ..are the bulk of the employees (illegals) considered essential?  At least the local governments are setting up testing stations specifically for this community.  But, then what - tell them to 'stay home'. 

Dusky put it nicely, but we are collectively 'falling forward' at such a pace it looks as if something like a virus may have to make such a large dent in global population to get us to stop looking at a $50,000 pickup truck with zero down, no payments for 90 days and 84 months as a 'good deal!'   ...or when you go into $200k debts for an education when jobs that pay $80k + are begging for employees.  My grandson is taking F'ing French toward his degree when someone was willing to give him a Heating/AC business in LA if he would just take the classes and work with him for a few years. Naaaaa... 

Wait 'till this c'hit his Lagos.

Jim





Atlantis Mistress .. Blue Planet MultiTasker ..   Atlantis Venom

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal