Author Topic: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?  (Read 3147 times)

Chan

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2020, 08:53:30 AM »
There are areas where unlimited growth is fantastic and others where retraction would be beneficial.  This virus has highlighted both.  Knowledge, is one area where unlimited growth is good.   As mentioned by prior posters, the current educational system seems too often to prepare future generations poorly with skills that are no longer relevant.  I think we have some of the best educators in the world, but not the best institutions.  Teachers have voiced concerns over systemic issues and shortcomings, but these concerns have fallen on deaf ears.  If we could move just this issue past the status quo, we wouldn’t need mandated quarantines.  We’d have a population capable of acting in their own best interests.  A better educated nation should be able to make some progress in preventing school shootings, drug abuse, domestic violence and health care.

The internet is finally realizing some of its educational potential with both young and old turning to online resources like Kahn academy and Masterclass.  Conversely, most social media is worse than mental junk food.  I mean I can understand the 'UFO sighting proves aliens brought the virus' conspiracies (at least those make sense in theory), but how did 'Bill and Melinda Gates created Covid19 to make millions', gain traction?  New technology has made staying home so much more enriching and social media has provided a dangerous amount of non-science nonsense.  I could imagine the next generation looking back in bewilderment at the Facebook and Twitter error. 

PonoBill

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2020, 10:11:29 AM »
For what it's worth I've created a group on facebook aiming to collect best practices and technical information that could be useful to businesses trying to restart. https://www.facebook.com/groups/2310109389294278/ I set it up as a private group to minimize ranting and politics, but if anyone wants to join I'll add you.

We'll see how this goes, I'm just trying to seed the discussion and perhaps create a useful resource. 95 percent chance it dies a rapid death, but it seemed worth a few hours of effort. It's getting some good discussion, but getting anything online to gain attention in the middle of the social shouting match is a challenge.

It seems almost pointless to say "we're not going back to normal" but it seems unlikely that we will. Big businesses are looking at their investment in downtown towers full of workers and trying to remember why they ever thought that was necessary or a good idea. That could prove to be ugly in a post-apocalyptic, abandoned city sense.
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SUP Leave

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2020, 12:16:31 PM »
I will join your group.

About getting back to normal, I wonder if something like the Oxford Vaccine being available to millions by September becomes a Deus Ex Machina? Vaulting consumer confidence into a vee shaped recovery? The Serum Institute has already started manufacturing it at risk (good capitalism?). It worked on the macaques and the first human data will come back in May. Human ingenuity is incredible (especially, when we just step over the red tape).

Regarding big offices and work from home. It does take some discipline on the part of the employee to do this. Anecdote from yesterday: A family friend works for the state prison system in the administrative department. Of the 400 employees in her sector, only 50 were required to be "essential" and the rest can "work from home". She has become so frustrated with her fellow employees not filling their end of the bargain (not responding to emails, missing ZOOM meetings, plus general jealousy) that she is filing grievances with her department heads.

But it does make sense that business incubators as satellite offices may be a better fit than large central offices. I.e. A small building in suburban setting (nearer homes) that has the capability for 4 or 5 employees of one or the same company. High speed bandwidths, a full suite of plotter/printer options, building maintenance, etc.

Since the shutdown in the last month I have actually created another remote work space in a crappy building I own, and filled it with someone who was struggling to work from home (kid distractions). His company is paying me $350 a month for the above services. My building has 3 businesses in it all 1 or 2 people remote from their main offices. If community planners would allow for it, you could create these kind of work places in residential subdivisions and no one would know they were there. The building I have was built residential and the zoning around it changed at some point.
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beached

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2020, 05:29:37 PM »
The fact is, until there is a cure and a vaccine, we can't return to doing things as we did before.

there really is no cure or vaccine for the common flu. there are treatments which turn out to be about 30-60% effective. and yet we've gone on wonderfully without shutting everything down. so that statement is ridiculous. but a lot of folks buy into it.

A lot of you claim to be conservatives, and yet based on past posts from most of you, i'd swear you're all die-hard liberals here. which is why i don't post very often...when an opposing opinion comes along, you guys act like you've just been faced with Hannibal Lecter. living with as much intolerance as you guys have must be painful.

So I have no interest in any of this here, but clearly i've got a little too much time on my hands so I'll leave with this:
everything was shut down because we were worried about overburdening our healthcare system and hospitals. and yet now, when neither of those things are happening, we remain shut down. please don't say as soon as we reopen, the hospitals will be full. you don't know that at all, but if it works out that way, then our 'waiting to flatten the curve' meant nothing, and we're just as unprepared as ever.  so waiting longer will also be fruitless. everything should reopen immediately, and keep a close eye on hospitalizations. if they creep up uncomfortably, then some rescinding may be in order. if not, who cares if people are not social distancing? not social distancing is a potential cause of problems, not a benchmark of problems.

MAGA! (yeah, i threw that in there just knowing how much you libbies, oh sorry, conservatives, hate that).

Rider

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2020, 07:03:45 PM »
beached.....You mean Pono is not really a Conservative Republican. Oh My Word....

Tom

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM »
beached, you're  going to have to explain to me how agreeing with states putting procedures in place to keep it's citizens safe is a liberal versus conservative thing. When the states pass laws for speed limits and requiring wearing of seat-belts, are those that agree with the law just die-hard liberals.

PonoBill

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2020, 09:47:17 AM »
Depends on what you mean by conservative. I don't see much of traditional conservative politics in the current republican party, certainly not in the Trumpets, who seem to want a daddy or a king to protect them. The few things a conservative would want from the federal government are the very things the current administration fails at spectacularly.
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SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2020, 10:08:51 AM »
beached, you're  going to have to explain to me how agreeing with states putting procedures in place to keep it's citizens safe is a liberal versus conservative thing.
Convenience.

That's the problem with the two-party political system/fiasco we have. When you disagree with someone, it's much more convenient to just argue against or blame their political affiliation than it is to argue or discuss an actual solution or compromise to the situation in question.

I'd love to see us remove the (R) or the (D) behind our representatives names, and let them all just stand on their own beliefs, and voting records.

This way, I believe (hope) that the middle-of-the-roaders of each party would feel more inclined to vote their conscious, instead of feeling they have to vote march step along party lines, or fear being attacked by their own lunatic fringe minority that because of their outlandish BS, get all of the attention from their respective far left or right traditional and social media outlets that have become so the rage lately. It's "the age of the outrage" as someone so succinctly stated here not too long ago.

It's even evident here when the troll(s) come in only to spout off about what they perceive as someone's possible political leanings, instead of contributing anything of any content wrt the topic.

This two-party systems allows folks put their brains on the shelf, and just spew political party rhetoric in place of any type of well thought out response to the question or situation at hand, then thinking they've actual said or accomplished something.

When it comes to politics, we've become so intellectually lazy that even when the head of the CV-19 task force meets and greets patients, and hospital as the only one not wearing a mask, and he, and much of his party don't understand why the optics of that is so terribly bad, and his "group" will attempt to justify his lack of thinking (trying to be nice here). His wife then tries to cover for him, and only makes him look less intelligent (being nice again), by saying that he didn't know the hospital's rules until after his visit was over. Really, that's supposed to help? Pssst, look around Mike, even Sesame Street for five year olds has "One of these is not like the others". Smh..

Yes Karen, there are times when it's just best to STFU!! I'm going to do that now.  :-X
« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 10:11:12 AM by SanoSlatchSup »
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SaMoSUP

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2020, 10:17:59 AM »
I found this interesting chart that could help the various "we's" figure out what works for their situations.

What's good for NY is good for Wyoming? Seems like the whole country is paying for NYC once again. Perhaps the capital of capitalism gone amok.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 10:23:35 AM by SaMoSUP »

Admin

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2020, 11:12:18 AM »
I found this interesting chart that could help the various "we's" figure out what works for their situations.

What's good for NY is good for Wyoming? Seems like the whole country is paying for NYC once again. Perhaps the capital of capitalism gone amok.

Hi Samo,

The US already has more Covid deaths than the worst flu Year in the last 10 years and over twice the average flu deaths per year and the numbers are still rising quickly.  That is with massive shutdowns and distancing.  This is not isolated to NY.  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/29/far-greater-u-s-covid-19-death-toll-indicated-cdc-data/3048381001/

« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 11:16:13 AM by Admin »

SaMoSUP

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2020, 01:48:47 PM »
Admin I was looking more into the proportions across various states and a different angle...

1 - 52% of total US deaths so far are in two states NY, NJ (top 2 in deaths)
2 - 73% of total US deaths so far are in seven states NY, NJ, MI, MA, IL, CT, PA (top 7 in deaths) all east of the Mississippi btw.

3 - CA accounts for only 3% of total US deaths.

So is it ok to continue to freeze the rest of the country's economy because of 2 to 7 states?

Can restrictions be relaxed in CA, the worlds fifth largest economy (14% of US GDP) but only 3% of total US deaths?

What about in other states where contagion levels have not been realized. Can restrictions be relaxed?

Is the geography of CA and other western states likely not conducive to the contagion rates in densely populated areas like NY & NJ?

You can argue that the early stay at home orders in CA may have helped. But I counter with the fact that the LA Marathon was run in early March a week before stay at home orders. There were 25,000 runners and 500,000 spectators lined up along the course in close contact with each other, no social distancing then. Yet there was NO BREAKOUT like in NY. Is it because these people were outdoors and exposed to sunlight and UV rays which breaks apart viruses?

Is the governor of CA on a power trip by ordering the beaches to close again despite local officials satisfied with most of the public's adherence to social distancing this past weekend? The hypocrisy is that they allowed the LA Marathon to run right before the lockdown measures. But it's not ok to be at the beach.

So are we going to treat the rest of the country as if they were NY? Or can we figure this out as it fits our local communities?


« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 01:56:35 PM by SaMoSUP »

clay

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2020, 02:50:55 PM »
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2020/04/29/far-greater-u-s-covid-19-death-toll-indicated-cdc-data/3048381001/

What this story actually says is that people are NOT dying from covid.

It says people ARE being killed by the lockdown and fear mongering, in other words they have a heart attack or other stress response and are not getting care because medical service has been shutdown or they are afraid to go to the hospital.

It also says that over a 3 week period 171,000 people died NOT from covid, anybody know or care what the cause of death was?  Anyone hysterical or panicking over these deaths?

By comparison in that same 3 week period 23,000 deaths are attributed to covid.

331 million people, my math calculates to a chance of death, covid or no covid, to way less than 1 percent.  Or ten time more likely to die from something other than covid.

WTF?   How long are folks going to believe the hype, the any day now "millions are going to die" scare-demic?
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PonoBill

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2020, 02:58:22 PM »
Two stages of an epidemic:

One: The government isn't doing enough.
Two: The government over-reacted. This wasn't necessary.

It doesn't take science fiction to have a pandemic that kills everyone. Was this it? Obviously not. But there isn't any way to say what would have happened to the USA if there had been no lockdown. We may get to see exactly how bad this could be when we open back up. Only it won't be a disease spreading geometrically from a few initiating infected people. It will be from a few million infected people. I hope that doesn't happen, but we're going to find out.
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SaMoSUP

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2020, 07:11:09 PM »
Here's what we know for sure...30 million people infected with the unemployment "virus" in US. 66,000 deaths from the virus.

I agree with you Clay btw. Not sure if Admin read that article right. The main stream media will only push its own agenda. I like to look at different angles.

Frankly, the herd immunity approach may be the right "compromise" in this situation. Otherwise waiting a year for the vaccine...we'll see. Sweden so far hasn't been wiped out.

The flip side of this is the positive effect on pollution, not only from drop in transportation but now from the meat industry slowdown due to infected workers. Perhaps mother nature prodding humanity to do the work for the environment.

What do you think about requirement to wear a mask on planes now? Imagine wearing one for a 5 hour flight plus 2 hours in airport. What about those 12+ hour trips across the Pacific?

« Last Edit: May 01, 2020, 07:33:56 PM by SaMoSUP »

Admin

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Re: Should we really wait for "them" to figure this out?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2020, 02:33:53 AM »
I agree with you Clay btw. Not sure if Admin read that article right. The main stream media will only push its own agenda. I like to look at different angles.

Hi Guys,

That article is titled, "Spike in US deaths and cases flagged as pneumonia suggests even greater COVID-19 impact" and he lays out a very strong case for that.  It doesn't say that people are not dying of Covid.  It says that there is strong evidence that Covid deaths are being under reported.  I do think that he presents a good balance of information.  Some sick people are staying home from the hospitals and are dying at home.  I think it is faulty analysis to determine that this is due to Covid fear mongering.  Even medical professionals are worried about being in Covid heavy hospitals right now. That is a rational worry based on a threat that is very real for many of these people. 

In terms of sensibly relaxing restrictions, I am not aware of anyone that is pushing for that not to happen.  I am certainly not.  The goal of this initial action was to reduce a surge which would have further overwhelmed the medical system.  I have never heard a scientist say that this measure would be the end of the disease.  It was a mitigation step.  Where the disease has been substantially mitigated it makes sense to relax restrictions.



« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 03:55:30 AM by Admin »