Author Topic: Mast Track Position  (Read 1188 times)

Admin

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Mast Track Position
« on: April 22, 2020, 04:00:17 AM »
Hi guys,

A thought on track position.  There is a lot of talk about positioning the mast in the track in very general terms (all the way forward, mid track, all the way back, etc) without regard for the specifics of the mast/foil.  I (just) realized that in the same track position our aluminum Axis masts are over 1.25 inches forward of our carbon masts.  This makes it so mid-track on one amounts to the same mast position as all the way forward on the other (and that is all within one brand). 

I think that this may be valuable (especially to new riders) as your centered (for example) may be entirely different than someone elses. 

Wetstuff

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2020, 05:22:19 AM »
Boss,  Is it/was it a rule-of-thumb: the center (?) of the wing should be in line with the truck nuts standing above?  I watched a video of Casso in OZ where the board had a proounced 'nose down' attitude and he was well forward of a 'centered' stance.  It gets confusing.

Jim


Atlantis Mistress .. Blue Planet MultiTasker ..   Atlantis Venom

Wetstuff

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2020, 06:47:19 AM »
....and perhaps someone can convert the following into a pencil sketch for me.  A pinch from the StephenZ on the Breeze..

"One of the biggest reasons why sups fly badly and pump badly is the center of lift is too far back. As @willow75 suggests, the best position almost always ends up being the front of the tracks. Even then it's still not optimal.
For a board to be in balance while flying, the center and gravity and the center of lift should be in the same place, or almost exactly. With a well balanced setup when unweighting both feet the board will carry on flying level. Pumping is much easier, 2 foot pumping is possible, and turning is much easier and smoother.
When on the water you want the center of buoyancy to in the same place as the center of gravity, or even slightly forward - this gives more stability on the water. A lot of SUPs tend to have quite a lot of volume further back. This means you have to stand further back to be stable while standing, which means you have to pull the foil further back to get stability while moving on the water. This lead to the center of lift being behind the center of gravity. So even smaller, minimal volume SUPs end up being unbalanced.
Rather a slightly longer bigger perfectly balanced board than a shorter board that's out of balance in this way."

I can read the words but I have difficulty creating an image my 'processor' requires to understand most things.  Thanks.

Jim
Atlantis Mistress .. Blue Planet MultiTasker ..   Atlantis Venom

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2020, 07:04:26 AM »
Boss,  Is it/was it a rule-of-thumb: the center (?) of the wing should be in line with the truck nuts standing above?

Hi Jim,

That may be a rule of thumb and it seems like a good spot to start (front wing position) but I notice a lot of factors that change that.  When the wind picks up or drops off you may be further forward or back than that.  That is just one example.  It is not really a static position.  You can do a lot of it with your back foot.  When I watch the really good guys I see them making constant little micro adjustments.  It is so deep in their muscle memory.  They are always fine tuning.  Not so much for us newbs but it slowly is becoming more natural feeling (but there are still those days :) ). 

Your board is likely going to have a spot where it trims best on the surface and where your stance feels most comfortable.  It is great if you can also adjust your foils to work well in that position as a home point when you are flying.  That lets you take off and ride without jumping around a lot.   

Board nose up/down can be a little deceptive.  Boards don't all have the same angle relationship to the foils and some are not flat at the mast tracks.  Some don't have decks that are parallel to the bases.  Some can ride (relatively) nose up and others can ride nose down.  Riders can shim between board and mast base to change this but that is a hassle.

Relating center of gravity to center of lift is a great way to do it.  Trying to tie that to a single position in the track for all gear possibilities (all the way forward, for example) is impossible.  That is completely gear dependent.  Back of center for one may equal all the way forward for another.  I think this can and often does take new riders (with no foiling experience) in the wrong direction.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 08:33:32 AM by Admin »

Wetstuff

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2020, 05:23:46 AM »
Thanks, Randy.  I could see those words.  In summary: 'It depends.'. 

Our own Clay provides a visual.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tP7Q9-2p-gI&t=81s

This is a 'lift' from the people who make that really the cool stick-on foil mount.

Surf Mounting Location Guide

For surfboards and Stand-up Paddleboards the location you want to mount the hydrofoil depends much on the length and weight of the board your mounting on.  The GoFoil website has a great guide for box placement that is spot-on with what we've found for mounting the FoilMount.  There will be slight variations depending on your hydrofoil speed in the water, but because of the adjust-ability of the FoilMount they are a non-issue.  Here is a listing of board size with approximate distance from the back of the board measured from the rear edge of the FoilMount.

 Board Size (length)   FoilMount Distance from Rear of the Board

under 5ft    directly under where your rear foot will be on the board (pay attention to board rocker) minimal board weight at this size
5' -5'9"   8" - 12" from rear of board to rear edge of FoilMount
5'10" - 6'6"   10"-15" from rear of board to rear edge of FoilMount
6'7" - 7'4"   16" - 20" from rear of board to rear edge of FoilMount
7'5" - 8'6"   18" - 22" from rear of board to rear edge of FoilMount
8'7" - 9'6"   23" - 28" from rear of board to rear edge of FoilMount
9'7" -10'   25" - 29" from rear of board to rear edge of FoilMount
longer than 10ft   Mount around 28-30" and you will be able to accommodate with foot placement on the board.


They also have some really trick mounting bolts/nuts.  https://foilmount.com

....the following is the GoFoil reference above.

Tuttle Box Placement for a GO Foil Brand Foil, Other Foils May Vary
Rough Guidelines to Tuttle box placements for different length boards: The measurement is made from the back opening of the Tuttle box or from the trailing edge of Mast on our plate foil to the tail of the board.
Check video for installing Tuttle box on out Tutorial Video page for more info.
Board Length   Distance from tail of board
3′ to 46″   1′ to 6″
46 to 411   4 to 8
50″ to 59   6 to 12
510 to 66   8 to 15
67 to 74   12 to 20
75 to 86   16 to 22
87 to 96   20 to 28
Prone surfboards in general need the box further back than a SUP. This is because the lighter the board, the less lift you need to make and/or keep it foiling.
Think of your back foot on a prone board where you would like to place it when standing up into surf position. Generally, your foot will be close to standing directly on top of the mast when on a prone board or slightly forward of that position.
On a SUP, you can stand slightly aft of the prone position, so many stand on the trailing edge of the mast on their SUPs.
Box placement further forward creates greater lift and earlier planing but you will be standing further towards the nose to balance it.
Box further back usually helps the boards turn ability.
Lightweight riders need less lift and heavy riders need more lift so consider the riders size when choosing box placement.


...it is on GoFoil's FAQ page.  https://www.gofoil.com/faq/#

Jim
Atlantis Mistress .. Blue Planet MultiTasker ..   Atlantis Venom

oakfish

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2020, 07:22:15 AM »
I plan on getting the above-mentioned adhesive foil mount for my Naish Mana (9'6").  Anyone tried one yet? 

Admin

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2020, 09:38:25 AM »
Thanks, Randy.  I could see those words.  In summary: 'It depends.'. 

Yes. The one size fits all advice can really be confusing at first.  The mast offset issue that I mentioned above is just one factor.

SUPladomi

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2020, 12:39:01 PM »
I plan on getting the above-mentioned adhesive foil mount for my Naish Mana (9'6").  Anyone tried one yet?

My experience has been good as the foilmount allowed me to get into kitefoiling on the cheap.

I converted my 20 year old Slingshot Little Fat Bastard 6' kiting surfboard into a kitefoil board. It has held up so far for 2 seasons and I've run aground on several occasions.

I prepped the board really well following the instructions (Light sanding, scotchbrite, alcohol) before affixing the foilmount.

I have read of instances where it has detached. If this were to happen my foil would sink so as a backup I always leash the base plate to the board using a piece of heavy duty dyneema kite line.


wrighty

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2020, 10:36:04 PM »
I plan on getting the above-mentioned adhesive foil mount for my Naish Mana (9'6").  Anyone tried one yet?

Be careful I have heard of quite a few failures, eg.

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Foilmount-nightmare

PonoBill

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2020, 10:46:50 PM »
The biggest issue would be the construction of the board. If you put it on a standard surfboard you have a single layer of glass over eps or foam blank. I can't imagine how it would last more than a session before delaminating. On a sandwich construction board you might have better luck.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

oakfish

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2020, 08:06:05 AM »
Thanks for this info.  I think I'm going to give it a try.  I'll be sure to leash it to the board in case it comes off.

daswusup

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Re: Mast Track Position
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2020, 06:10:43 PM »
I am bouncing between Slingshot I84 with 48 stab in the "b" position and the I76 with 42 stab in "a" position with my 6'6" Outwit. I have found that mast all the way forward makes getting up on foil way easier and actually suits my largeish sup better than the smaller foil back on the tracks. I got in a nice groove with the I76 while kiting on a 18L board and just assumed that this is where I needed to be headed for winging. I think that certain foils suit certain boards and that there is not necessarily a simple crossover between different sports/boards/foils. I think that as I move toward lower volume boards, I can start lowering the volume of my foils too. Send it!!!!

 


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