Author Topic: Upwind on foil  (Read 9218 times)

Phils

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • View Profile
    • Email
Upwind on foil
« on: April 20, 2020, 11:54:23 AM »
Starting to ride upwind but think angles could be better.  Looking for pointers to maximize upwind angle.  Does holding wing more vertical help?  Maybe tilt mast more?  I know people like a harness for this but I am not ready to take that step yet.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2020, 07:31:12 PM »
You're right that a harness is the big change, but I find it hard to manage. I cheat my front foot toward the rail. But really, I find upwind to be the easiest part of winging. I discipline myself to go downwind.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dwight (DW)

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4780
    • View Profile
    • supSURFmachines
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2020, 03:55:14 AM »
Tilting the board helps. Holding the wing vertical like a windsurf sail. Don’t ride it like Mary Poppins.

Solent Foiler

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2020, 04:08:20 AM »
My understanding... The further you point upwind the lower the forward drive you get from the wing until you reach the 'no-go' zone where you physically can't sail upwind further and loose all power entirely. To that end, to wing closer to wind you need to maximise available power which holding the wing more vertically will do.

Leaning the board to windward (ie tilting the mast towards the wind) helps get upwind as the foil generates an upwind sideways force.

In theory, holding the wing further behind the mast should also help get upwind (this definitely help when low riding / non foiling), but that gets complicated on a foil as it might mean a change in body position in relation to the foil and mucks up your board control.
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
Swift Foil Boards custom 4'10 x 19.5" 35L
Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
Axis ART 799, 899, 1099, HPS 880 US & CS Adv fuse, 85cm mast
Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm and 65cm mast
Takuma RS 5.1, 4.3, 3.5

wingdingjoe

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 73
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2020, 09:13:41 AM »
You know I'm totally baffled also on WHY it's been so hard for me to point upwind. ?

Was a windsurfer for 7 years, been kiting for 20 and kite foiling for 4 years nonstop. Have a 6mt Swing and was plenty powered this weekend 15 to 18 knots.. Using harness line occasionally to rest the arms and played with the length quite a bit... But it's been really challenging to get upwind!
I find it's quite easy to get to a point where the wing is stalling out.. Seems like the "sweet spot" for generating power at an upwind Angle is very reduced.. No matter how "vertical" I have the wing.. It seems that can only really sheet in like 5/8ths of total because after that it seems to lose power and begun to stall. Man I tried every damn permutation this weekend.. From changing foot placement, foil Mast placement, length of harness line, wing more overhead, wing farther back, I could do it but NOT EVEN CLOSE to the upwind angles I can get foiling!

1 caveat... I'm used to 90cm mast with the sshot infinity 76 while kiting and since I can't get that thing to fly WITH THe wing I've been using a loaned Naish Jet 1650 on a 60cm mast. For sure the Naish is a fat, slow wing made mostly for prone surf pumping... But doesn't seem like that should Hinder my upwind performance SOO MUCH.. or does it?

Damn lockdown! I'd pay double to be able to have the AXIS 1010 right now... Seems like a higher aspect fast wing should get me pointing higher. Any comments, opinions, or tips GREATLY appreciated!!

KyroJoe in Mexico

Phils

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2020, 09:54:55 AM »
I don’t think you can point as high as with a kite and foil.  Probably more like a kite and twintip.  A mistake I have been making is bringing my wing forward in the “window” like one would with a kite.  I think that just causes stalling.  To summarize the advice:  lean to windward, get Wing vertical, do not try to bring wing forward. Anything else?

clay

  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1138
    • View Profile
    • www.clayisland.com
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2020, 10:14:31 AM »
In my limited experience I've winged with 1700, 2000, and 2400 foils.  With the 1700 i have to work a lot harder to go upwind, especially at a steep angle.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

Dwight (DW)

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4780
    • View Profile
    • supSURFmachines
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2020, 11:37:48 AM »
You know I'm totally baffled also on WHY it's been so hard for me to point upwind. ?

Was a windsurfer for 7 years, been kiting for 20 and kite foiling for 4 years nonstop. Have a 6mt Swing and was plenty powered this weekend 15 to 18 knots.. Using harness line occasionally to rest the arms and played with the length quite a bit... But it's been really challenging to get upwind!
I find it's quite easy to get to a point where the wing is stalling out.. Seems like the "sweet spot" for generating power at an upwind Angle is very reduced.. No matter how "vertical" I have the wing.. It seems that can only really sheet in like 5/8ths of total because after that it seems to lose power and begun to stall. Man I tried every damn permutation this weekend.. From changing foot placement, foil Mast placement, length of harness line, wing more overhead, wing farther back, I could do it but NOT EVEN CLOSE to the upwind angles I can get foiling!

1 caveat... I'm used to 90cm mast with the sshot infinity 76 while kiting and since I can't get that thing to fly WITH THe wing I've been using a loaned Naish Jet 1650 on a 60cm mast. For sure the Naish is a fat, slow wing made mostly for prone surf pumping... But doesn't seem like that should Hinder my upwind performance SOO MUCH.. or does it?

Damn lockdown! I'd pay double to be able to have the AXIS 1010 right now... Seems like a higher aspect fast wing should get me pointing higher. Any comments, opinions, or tips GREATLY appreciated!!

KyroJoe in Mexico

You have one issue figured out. The front wing makes a big difference. The GL-180 and Axis 1010 will crush other wings in upwind angles.

The other issue is the Swing. It just cannot handle high upwind angles. It backwinds too soon. Probably all gen 2 wings will be better in this area. For sure, the S25 crushes the Swing upwind.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6443
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2020, 12:44:24 PM »
You know I'm totally baffled also on WHY it's been so hard for me to point upwind. ?

Was a windsurfer for 7 years, been kiting for 20 and kite foiling for 4 years nonstop. Have a 6mt Swing and was plenty powered this weekend 15 to 18 knots.. Using harness line occasionally to rest the arms and played with the length quite a bit... But it's been really challenging to get upwind!
I find it's quite easy to get to a point where the wing is stalling out.. Seems like the "sweet spot" for generating power at an upwind Angle is very reduced.. No matter how "vertical" I have the wing.. It seems that can only really sheet in like 5/8ths of total because after that it seems to lose power and begun to stall. Man I tried every damn permutation this weekend.. From changing foot placement, foil Mast placement, length of harness line, wing more overhead, wing farther back, I could do it but NOT EVEN CLOSE to the upwind angles I can get foiling!

1 caveat... I'm used to 90cm mast with the sshot infinity 76 while kiting and since I can't get that thing to fly WITH THe wing I've been using a loaned Naish Jet 1650 on a 60cm mast. For sure the Naish is a fat, slow wing made mostly for prone surf pumping... But doesn't seem like that should Hinder my upwind performance SOO MUCH.. or does it?

Damn lockdown! I'd pay double to be able to have the AXIS 1010 right now... Seems like a higher aspect fast wing should get me pointing higher. Any comments, opinions, or tips GREATLY appreciated!!

KyroJoe in Mexico

Hi Joe,

It does sound like the foil.  The Axis 1020 and 1010 are effortless upwind if there is enough wind to foil.  Pumping your (air) wing to hard will help a lot as well.  The Axis 1000 goes upwind really nicely as well , but it takes a little more wind to be powered. 
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 12:57:47 PM by Admin »

Solent Foiler

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2020, 01:26:46 PM »
Conversely, I run the Jet 1650 and haven't had any issues getting upwind... Not saying it's the best, but certainly not a problem...
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
Swift Foil Boards custom 4'10 x 19.5" 35L
Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
Axis ART 799, 899, 1099, HPS 880 US & CS Adv fuse, 85cm mast
Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm and 65cm mast
Takuma RS 5.1, 4.3, 3.5

Solent Foiler

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2020, 03:18:30 PM »
In fact, reading your post again... If you can't sheet the wing in more than just over half way (5/8's), then you're going to struggle to get upwind. When I'm going upwind it' feels quite similar to windsurfing. You're sheeted in hard with a vertical wing and feeling how high you can point before power starts to drop too much - steering that fine line. The power sweet spot is a lot smaller pointing high so have to be careful not to over sheet too...

It's not something fundamental like not enough pressure in the wing? That wouldn't help!
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
Swift Foil Boards custom 4'10 x 19.5" 35L
Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
Axis ART 799, 899, 1099, HPS 880 US & CS Adv fuse, 85cm mast
Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm and 65cm mast
Takuma RS 5.1, 4.3, 3.5

wingdingjoe

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 73
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2020, 04:46:27 PM »
Thanx to all for the quick replies! I knew I could count on this group!
1) the wing has PLENTY of pressure.. In fact.. I actually thought maybe my habit of pumping it extra rigid might somehow be the problem... But logic just doesn't let me entertain that idea very seriously. Do any of you ONLY put 6lbs in your Swings? If just seems way too floppy /bendy with only 6psi.
2) I can understand that the 6mt swing can never be a super efficient high upwind angle pointing machine... With a mast the size of an elephant leg there's got to be some serious turbulence when trying to point high... And I regret having Mentioned my pointing ability with kite/foil in my original question because OBVIOUSLY they are 2 different animals.. But im not saying "I can't point as high as kiting or windsurfing.. I'm saying " I'm having a bitch of a time pointing PERIOD... AND this ain't my first Rodeo so WTF? hehe..

For sure this Naish foil is much slower than my already slow sshot i76... So could the reduced speed play a big role in pointing ability?

Do most of you on "kneestart" boards regularly ride with your foil masts in the farthest forward position? I really wasnt able to pump onto a plane in any other position of the foil and then saw a video where Nuzzo of REAL mentioned he had the same experience... But a few times when nicely powered I DID wish I could have easily changed the mast position to a slightly farther aft setting to see what effect it might have had. Could a few centimeters slide posterior in the mast track make a huge difference in pointing?

Intrigued to try the 2nd gen wings for sure.. I envision built in "reflex" and much thinner, more rigid masts and booms in the near future.

Ps.. Tried all the available lengths for the F1 harness line... Even made extra larks head attachment points for father forward and aft... Finally tried adding 2 inches to the total length of the "standard" with an extension and felt that to be the optimum setup.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2020, 06:49:37 PM »
This is an odd conversation for me. Maybe it's my gear, maybe it's my fat ass, but going upwind has never been an issue for me with winging--including when the only wing I had was a Duotone 3M and that required a GoFoil 280 to get me out of the water--even in 30+ wind. I can't make the same angles as a kite foiler, but I'm not ridiculously far off, even without a harness line. With a harness I can point far enough upwind to be able to see the leading edge of the wing flutter.

The 280 bent the goFoil mast like a banana. I could push down on one wingtip with the board upside down and get the wing to probably 30-degree angle with the GoFoil 24", which was a pretty wimpy mast, but still--solid carbon.

I do tend to cheat my rear foot a bit towards the rail, I do this all the time, and as I mentioned before, when I'm really trying to point high I move my front foot a little towards the rail. It gives a slightly more solid feel to the board. I have to move the rear foot to the middle when I start a jibe or the board won't turn well. I'm not sure though what the difference is. At the end of nearly every session, I have to drive a long distance downwind to get back to the start--even when I've been trying not to go too far upwind.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Solent Foiler

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2020, 01:22:10 AM »
Can't see how speed would impact ability to point, especially if you consider that sailing dinghies sailing in displacement mode can point really high and they're moving pretty slowly. As long as the foil is working properly (ie has flow over it and isn't stalled / cavitated) it'll work to get you upwind ok, just a question of degree / optimisation. I'm struggling to think how it's the foil shape that's the issue, and my own experience on the same foil bears that out (wish I had some GPS traces to demonstrate).

Sorry if it sounds like I'm rubbing it in, but my experience is more like PonoBill - save for the first few sessions learning on the wing, getting upwind hasn't been an issue at all...

EDIT - I have my mast all the way forward, but I'm riding quite a big board at the moment. Mast forward should help in getting upwind as you can get more wing behind it pushing the nose higher.

Some video would be helpful if you have any.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 01:26:54 AM by Solent Foiler »
I'm 5'10", 66kg riding:
Swift Foil Boards custom 4'10 x 19.5" 35L
Gong Lethal 4'6 65L
Axis ART 799, 899, 1099, HPS 880 US & CS Adv fuse, 85cm mast
Gong Fluid L-S, XXL-S on 85cm and 65cm mast
Takuma RS 5.1, 4.3, 3.5

Phils

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 341
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Upwind on foil
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2020, 01:46:17 AM »
I get that people can go upwind, no problem, with some experience.  My original question was tips on how to maximize the upwind angle.

I don't see how moving the mast forward matters.  If you move the mast forward, you have to move your body forward the same amount so wing position relative to mast does not change.  Or am I missing something?

Higher aspect foils should point better due to their lower induced drag.

What I learned from the comments here is that the biggest mistake I was making was trying to drive my wing forward (like with a kite), when the opposite might be better. 

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal