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Author Topic: Quad Issues on new board  (Read 3223 times)

magentawave

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2020, 08:42:27 PM »
I really liked twins back in the day before thrusters obliterated them and I loved quads on short surfboards but quads on high performance sups for me always feels like I've got too much fin in the back. Great for drivey down the line stuff but too stiff to break a line. This issue is exacerbated by the fact that most shapers put the cluster too far back and/or put too much space between the front quads and the back quads. (Joe Blair seems to get it right though.) So, after trying a million different combo's on my 8-6 round tail, everything clicked when I put big ass 6" MR 78 originals in the front boxes + a nubster in the heel side back box (calms down the pivotyness of the backside turn) + another nubster in the center box. (People always say "you're missing a fin.") That combo made the board feel alive and 3 pounds lighter. I went through the exact same issue on my newly acquired 8-2 RNB using the quads that came with it so I'm trying a similar twin/nubster combo on it. Unfortunately no one makes the big 6" MR 78's any longer so I had to compromise with slightly smaller twins.

P.S. I haven't had this RNB in good surf yet so time will tell if I can make it work the way I'm hoping it will. So far the rails seem too beefy (like Starboard rails), the tomo-ish tail feels too wide and it doesn't have enough rocker.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 08:44:26 PM by magentawave »
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StarboardSUPMan

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2020, 06:41:40 AM »
Appreciate all the feedback.  I find it interesting that almost everyone responding seems to prefer some sort of a quad fin setup and there isnít much love for the thruster.  Obviously there is something to this and it looks like I need to keep on tweaking until I find that magic combination.  I did a few lessons with 2 of the starboard proís Zane Schweitzer and Sean Poynter and they both preferred thrusters for predictability and drive.  Having said that Iím nowhere near a pro nor do I have a prayer of doing any sort of airs or blowing the fins out on a turn.   So quad may be the choice it just wasnít as simple as throwing some stock fins in and surfing.  Looks like I need another session where I have all the fin combos and keep swapping them until something clicks.

Night Wing - Yes I agree I need to play around with a nubster rear fin.  There was something I truly enjoyed about quads I just couldnít get it dialed in so this may be the missing piece.  I think Iíve avoided adding a nubster from fear of Ďover finningí with 5 fins in the water.  But looking at how small it is itís worth a shot.

OkiWild - The pic is a little deceiving my rear quad boxes are about 1.5Ē further up towards the nose than my center box, but looking at your boards the rear quad boxes appear to be half way or more up the center fin box.  I know how to glass so I may look into moving the quad rear fin boxes up on the board to loosen things up.  Iíll have to do some investigation and get measurements prior to that project. 
Iíve never even heard of a mink systems diffuses those look pretty wild thanks for sharing that. 
One question back to you about the board corking out with a thruster, do you mean like actually blowing the fins out in a slide?  Are you blowing them out at the top of the wave?  I have yet to be able to do that no matter how hard I push the board.

Magnetawave - My friend has a starboard hyper nut and went to the twin fin and loves it.  Iíve never even attempted twin fins mostly out of fear of spinning out.  Looks like Iíve got to at least try it but need to go with some XL front fins.  My mind canít fully process surfing with one fin in the heel side fin box and not on the other side, but it makes sense like how they build asymmetrical surfboards.

supthecreek

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2020, 08:27:12 AM »
SSUPman said:
"I find it interesting that almost everyone responding seems to prefer some sort of a quad fin setup and there isnít much love for the thruster"

Thruster fan here.... I much prefer thruster on almost anything  ;D
I find more drive, snappier turns

Lately I am happiest with boards that work well with largish sidebites and small pivot fin in center.
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Night Wing

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2020, 10:50:31 AM »
@ magentawave

Where I sup surf on the upper Texas coast, we don't have large waves. Most of the time our waves are tiny to small waves.

Now I define what we have which are:

Tiny - ankle to knee high
Small - knee to waist high
Medium - waist to chest high
Large - chest to head high
Big - over head high

With a 4 fin quad setup; you gain Speed, but you lose Drive. With a 3 fin thruster setup (2 +1); you gain Drive, but you lose Speed.

For me with my 11'1" board, many times I'm sup surfing in Tiny to Small waves. I need a 4 fin quad setup to give me Speed because these Tiny to Small waves aren't going to give me lots of Drive because these waves are not fast moving.

With a 3 fin thruster setup in these types of waves above, the large 9" fin is going to produce too much "drag" and slow the board down more than if I'm using a 4 fin quad setup. So without the Speed, the board will not have the Drive especially last year with me at 144 pounds riding it.

With Medium to Large waves, the 4 fin quad setup gives my board a lot of Speed, but at the bottom of the wave to make the turn, this fin setup makes the tail end of the board to "skid out" and people call this a "skatey" feeling.

The 5 fin setup (quad + 2.25" nubster) in these types of waves gives me Speed, but at the bottom of these types of waves, the nubster gives me Drive so the tail end of the board does not skid out and allows me to turn the board, either left or right, easily. So for me, in these Medium to Large waves; two 5", two 4" and one 2.25" is the perfect fin sizes for me in a 5 fin setup.

So you have to look at the size of the waves you would "normally" encounter and pick your fin height accordingly for a 5 fin setup.

BTW, since you've seen my 5 fin setup, I found a picture of my board so you can see it's narrow pin tail for an 11'1" board and I hope I can get this message to post without getting timed out.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 10:54:00 AM by Night Wing »
Blue Planet Duke: 10'5" x 32" x 4.5" @ 190 Liters (2 Dukes)
Sup Sports Hammer: 8'11" x 31" x 4" @ 140 Liters
SUP Sports One World: 11'1" x 30" x 4.5" @ 173 Liters

magentawave

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 12:08:15 PM »
@ magentawave

Where I sup surf on the upper Texas coast, we don't have large waves. Most of the time our waves are tiny to small waves.

Now I define what we have which are:

Tiny - ankle to knee high
Small - knee to waist high
Medium - waist to chest high
Large - chest to head high
Big - over head high

With a 4 fin quad setup; you gain Speed, but you lose Drive. With a 3 fin thruster setup (2 +1); you gain Drive, but you lose Speed.

For me with my 11'1" board, many times I'm sup surfing in Tiny to Small waves. I need a 4 fin quad setup to give me Speed because these Tiny to Small waves aren't going to give me lots of Drive because these waves are not fast moving.

With a 3 fin thruster setup in these types of waves above, the large 9" fin is going to produce too much "drag" and slow the board down more than if I'm using a 4 fin quad setup. So without the Speed, the board will not have the Drive especially last year with me at 144 pounds riding it.

With Medium to Large waves, the 4 fin quad setup gives my board a lot of Speed, but at the bottom of the wave to make the turn, this fin setup makes the tail end of the board to "skid out" and people call this a "skatey" feeling.

The 5 fin setup (quad + 2.25" nubster) in these types of waves gives me Speed, but at the bottom of these types of waves, the nubster gives me Drive so the tail end of the board does not skid out and allows me to turn the board, either left or right, easily. So for me, in these Medium to Large waves; two 5", two 4" and one 2.25" is the perfect fin sizes for me in a 5 fin setup.

So you have to look at the size of the waves you would "normally" encounter and pick your fin height accordingly for a 5 fin setup.

BTW, since you've seen my 5 fin setup, I found a picture of my board so you can see it's narrow pin tail for an 11'1" board and I hope I can get this message to post without getting timed out.

Twins shine in the surf you described! So fast. It's amazing how fins completely change the way a board rides (for better or worse). It's worth trying the big twins with little nubster combo's.

If your quad lacks drive then you might try bigger fins, or at least bigger front fins, and maybe pop a small fin in the center box.

I'll take a photo of what I did and post it here...
8í-2Ē x 29Ē x 4Ē x 115 Liters - Infinity Round Nose Blurr Carbon
8'-6" x 29 1/4" x 4" x 118 Liters - Azul Forte Pro custom
9-2' x 29" x 3 7/8" - Sunova (15 lbs)

magentawave

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2020, 12:24:39 PM »

Magnetawave - My friend has a starboard hyper nut and went to the twin fin and loves it.  Iíve never even attempted twin fins mostly out of fear of spinning out.  Looks like Iíve got to at least try it but need to go with some XL front fins.  My mind canít fully process surfing with one fin in the heel side fin box and not on the other side, but it makes sense like how they build asymmetrical surfboards.

I can totally understand why a wide tail board like the Hyper Nut would work well with twins. I heard Kelly Slater say in an interview that the center fin on his thrusters is a little shorter than the side fins because he rode a lot of twins when he was a kid and liked them. Twins aren't for everybody though so there's no way I'd go twin in big waves, too pivoty, but dang, it was like night and day the way it transformed my 8-6. (How Mark Richards could rip at BIG Sunset on twins is mind blowing, but then that's Mark Richards.) I hardly ever experimented with fins on shortboard surfboards, but with these sup beasts, even relatively short high performance ones, if it doesn't work the first couple times the way it was configured when I bought it then it's time to experiment. When I get a board with only three boxes I'm kinda relieved in that I don't have as many options. My 9-2 Sunova longboard sup came with three FCS fin plug sets which really narrowed down the options. Fortunately Sunova nailed it so it rides great out of the box as a thruster. Hmmm, having said that, maybe I'll try big twins in it sometime. Damn, there I go again! :-\
8í-2Ē x 29Ē x 4Ē x 115 Liters - Infinity Round Nose Blurr Carbon
8'-6" x 29 1/4" x 4" x 118 Liters - Azul Forte Pro custom
9-2' x 29" x 3 7/8" - Sunova (15 lbs)

OkiWild

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2020, 06:02:49 AM »
[quote author=StarboardSUPMan link=topic=35687.msg411274#msg411274 date=1580222500

One question back to you about the board corking out with a thruster, do you mean like actually blowing the fins out in a slide?  Are you blowing them out at the top of the wave?  I have yet to be able to do that no matter how hard I push the board.

[/quote]

Just in a simple rail cut back. All of the following is just my opinion, but it's based on working really hard, and spending A LOT of money on fins to try and get a SUP to turn the way I like it. I never really cared what fins were in a short board, and was a thruster guy through and through, but found that SUP boards are super sensitive to the fin set up.

After the turn is initiated and the board goes up on the rail, with additional width and volume of a SUP, the single side fin and no real help from the distant center fin, the board has a lot more slip. With that slip, the wider spread between the side and rear fin, and your feet center-ish, it quickly wants to "cork" out of the water, giving the rail less grab, and then wants to flop over to the other rail. Of course I could stand with both feet on the rail and it would probably stay planted, but now it won't rotate over to the opposite rail when I want it to.

So I went out and got some footage  ;D   The following photo series is shot on the same day, same wave. Two different boards, but I've surfed both boards with thruster and quad set up, and the difference between fin set ups behaves the same on both boards. I tried hard to do the same turn at about the same speed, which was right at the max push for the thruster before a serious slip. Of course the shorter/narrower the board, the harder you can push it before it will slip, but on my smallest performance board (8'2"x28"x100L), I can hit the limit with the thruster pretty easy, so have to limit speed and push into and through a turn, but the quad will hold above my ability to slide it.

First series of four pics is thruster with Futures F6 Honeycomb fronts, and a Futures GL2 all the way in the back of the center box. First pic the turn is initiated off the top of the wave, and you can see the wide trough behind the board in a tight arc because the board is turning quickly with some controlled slide. Second pic you can see the board has popped out, sliding, and rotating over to the other rail, my heel still trying to keep it planted, leaving me with hyper-extended knee, and no longer over the board. Third pic the board has stalled in the slide, allowing me to come back on top of it, but still not really in control. Note that the board rotated very quickly. I could really throw it on, and completely slide the tail around, nose facing lip, and some people like to surf this way, but I have messed up knees from decades of this, and now I just want to draw solid lines with flow that never stops. Fourth pic is fully recovered, starting to accelerate and bring the nose around to get back to the shoulder.

Second series on the white board is quad with Futures F6 Alpha fronts, and Futures QD2 4.0 trailers. First pic the turn is initiated off the top of the wave. You can't see the trough because it's behind me, as the board is locked in and not slipping. Also not turning as tight, though the lean angle is the same, with same relative speed and force. Second pic starting to come out of the turn, still on top of the board, still no trough visible, as the board is still planted, and still tracking on the rail with no slide. Knees bent more, and compressing. Third pic the turn is done, I'm still over the board without a sloppy recovery, but the board hasn't stalled, and is still tracking forward. Fourth pic transitioned over to the other rail, and turning for the shoulder again.   

So of course different boards and fin groupings will be different, but that's the main difference I found in the board size/volume I like to ride.


StarboardSUPMan

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Re: Quad Issues on new board
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2020, 03:55:26 PM »
MagentaWave/NightWing - I will have to try some twin fins I've never really experimented with it, I'm interested in what it would do.  That or as it was suggested large front/small back find with a nubster.  I have the fins just need the waves.

Okiwild - thank you for the pictures it makes it a lot easier to understand it.  I'm wondering since my board measures 18" wide at 12" from the tail that maybe being a narrower board I'm not experiencing my center fin sliding out?  I do not feel the board slide like how you describe in a hard turn, but I can see in the pics with your rail sunk the center fin has got to be 1/2 way out of the water.

I did a little more playing around with my thruster setup by moving the center fin slightly forward and found something surprising.  I had the center fin as far back in the fin box as it allowed me to go which was 7.75" from the tail.  I moved the fin up to 8.5" and I was able to turn (pivot) the board much easier.  The next session I moved it to 9" from the tail and again it was even easier to pivot.  I was even able to do a mini reverse on a turn when I really put my weight into it.  The one thing I noticed was less drive when pumping down the line.  Get one thing give up another.  What surprised me the most was how different my board reacted by moving the rear fin forward 1.25".  Really shows if I didn't have an adjustable fin box how different the same board with 2 fin placements could be.

I think on bigger days I might want to go back to having the fin all the way back again, but it's working great in the 2-3' waist high waves we've been getting in Florida.

Here's a video off the Surfline cam and a few GoPro pics of the day.  Nothing too exciting the waves were small.  Had to include my wipeout!

https://youtu.be/QDsxjJoqlpg



« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 04:08:11 PM by StarboardSUPMan »

 


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