Author Topic: The Foil  (Read 9180 times)

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
The Foil
« on: October 08, 2019, 03:46:49 AM »
The wing is clearly the identifier for this new sport.  It distinguishes this from all of the other foiling flavors.  It is always visible and it gets all of the attention.  Lifelong boardheads also love their boards.  It is deep in the experience and it is easy to get emotional about a new deck.  But neither of those are the most important factor with the WingDing.  What is going on underwater gets much less attention but it is way more important to success of failure.  It is pretty shocking how the correct foil will turn not enough into plenty.  It is equally notable how the wrong  foil can say no way, no how. 

Dwight (DW)

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3626
    • View Profile
    • supSURFmachines
Re: The Foil
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2019, 04:28:38 AM »
Not just WingDinging, but kite and windsurf foiling too. Ive had a few people crack jokes over how many foils Ive owned. It plays the biggest roll in the equation.


Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The Foil
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2019, 05:08:20 AM »
Having no previous foiling experience, I had no idea what a foil was supposed to feel like when it was working right.  When I finally got on a foil combo that was working well, that allowed me to feel what level of (air) wing force it took to get that setup foiling.  It is surprisingly little force.  That is super important reference to have.  Once your body knows that part you can gauge how a foil is working for you.  I posted this because I think that there is a lot of misinformation out there that will take new participants in a wrong, expensive, and potentially discouraging direction. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 05:12:06 AM by Admin »

Dwight (DW)

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3626
    • View Profile
    • supSURFmachines
Re: The Foil
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2019, 05:45:01 AM »
So true.

Imagine my predicament. Someone orders a board. I want them to have the best experience possible. I want my board to be as awesome for them, as it is for me. Do I dare ask what foil they plan to use? They all work, but some make it so much easier.

Beasho

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2447
    • View Profile
Re: The Foil
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2019, 06:21:07 AM »
I am going to sound like a broken record but BIGGER is BETTER.

That is until we are all 'good' enough to appreciate a small wing.  But that's like riding a short board as well as Kelly Slater.  Give it 200 sessions until you complain that the board doesn't turn (for example). 

Otherwise we are all still beginners.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The Foil
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2019, 07:20:24 AM »
There is this funny thing with the wing in hand.  It gives you direct body lift and it easy easy to think that that is what is going to get you foiling.  It certainly helps, but in my mind the wing's initial role is way more getting water flow over the foil than it is providing rider lift.  It doesn't take much speed to get the right foil flying.  So, if you have decent board speed an you aren't flying...its the foil.  On a foil that is working for you and that is relatively large for your size takeoff can happen when you are barely moving and will keep you flying at almost stopped.  That was a real surprise to me.

Yesterday I was out on a Swing 4.2 and my Axis 1020.  It was in the 20's with some big gusts and lulls and I was pretty overwinged and overfoiled but not to the point where I wanted to walk back to the car.  The 1020 does become a handful for me in that wind.  I know that the 1000 or even a smaller stabilizer would have helped.  I never would have known that before. 


VB_Foil

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The Foil
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2019, 06:33:33 PM »
Great topic. I feel like someone with some math and spreadsheets skills could come up with a formula to allow someone,  without all of the experience you guys have, quickly figure what size wing and foil they should be on depending on a wind range, rider weight, foil size.

Im imagining some sort of magic ratio. Its gotta be like a sliding scale, as I could probably ride a 2400cm wing and a 2m wing in 23knts or a 1200cm wing and a 4m wing in the same wind.

A squared + B squared = C squared
  :D

What is the magic coefficient??

Im a 59 65kg rider:

Boards:
   311 32L FFB
   410 32L FSM
   511 100L FSM
Foils: Armstrong 1200, 1550, 2400
Wings: F-One Swing 3.5M and 5M

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 23041
    • View Profile
Re: The Foil
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2019, 09:29:35 PM »
The formula for lift in a trimmed state (neutral angle of attack) is (V**/2)CA in other words velocity squared divided by two times the lift coefficient times the area. It won't help much because the angle of attack is constantly changing with the foils we use. And you need to know the coefficient of the foil the designer selected.

So no, I don't think that's going to happen, the closest we're likely to get is just comparing area.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 5007
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The Foil
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2019, 04:00:48 AM »
Im imagining some sort of magic ratio. Its gotta be like a sliding scale, as I could probably ride a 2400cm wing and a 2m wing in 23knts or a 1200cm wing and a 4m wing in the same wind.

Hi VB,

Your second scenario there is in part what I think got us in trouble.  The notion that we were going to power up relatively small foils with bigger air wings, more power and more speed did us no favors.  That is a really tricky scenario for new foilers.   Those offer (and require) more speed and a new rider doesn't know how to create or manage that yet.  Foils also have lift and glide characteristics that don't show up on size charts that can make them much more (or less) difficult to tame. 

I remember thinking  that for lighter wind there was some magic pumping rhythm that was alluding me.  Some flowing combination of wing, body and board, initiated perfectly and carried out in a lovely sine wave that was required to get me flying.  I remember one early session when we had received a (well meaning - I think) tip about that and  the three of us were out enlongating our bodies, swooping our wings, and bouncing like three wounded geese trying to take flight.  It aint so.  When the kit is in order almost any sequence that somewhat rhythmically changes the pitch of the board will get you airborn.  A little board speed, a few pitch changes and you are off.  That is really nice because when you feel it you can work out the details of what motion works better and worse, but it all works to some degree.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 09:17:58 AM by Admin »

 


* Recent Posts

post Re: Offroad Wing Skate Board
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
obxDave
February 21, 2020, 11:44:45 PM
post Re: Bump Cap - less kooky foil head protection
[Foil SUP]
surfcowboy
February 21, 2020, 10:32:13 PM
post Re: A 9'8 Jimmy Lewis Destroyer as a performance longboard - It works
[Gear Talk]
BigZ
February 21, 2020, 10:06:53 PM
post Re: I'm Foiling and I can't get up!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
PonoBill
February 21, 2020, 09:45:32 PM
post Re: Offroad Wing Skate Board
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
PonoBill
February 21, 2020, 09:40:14 PM
post Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
flkiter
February 21, 2020, 09:23:29 PM
post Re: Greece Downwind Surfing Summer 2019
[Downwind and Racing]
bing
February 21, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
post Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
supkailua
February 21, 2020, 06:58:41 PM
post Re: Offroad Wing Skate Board
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
Keys Sup
February 21, 2020, 06:22:33 PM
post Offroad Wing Skate Board
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
red_tx
February 21, 2020, 05:50:04 PM
post Re: Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
red_tx
February 21, 2020, 05:45:33 PM
post Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
Keys Sup
February 21, 2020, 05:24:47 PM
post Re: A 9'8 Jimmy Lewis Destroyer as a performance longboard - It works
[Gear Talk]
lopezwill
February 21, 2020, 03:44:20 PM
post A 9'8 Jimmy Lewis Destroyer as a performance longboard - It works
[Gear Talk]
Dusk Patrol
February 21, 2020, 02:38:06 PM
post Re: I'm Foiling and I can't get up!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
surfwingsteve
February 21, 2020, 02:16:18 PM

* Recent Topics

topic Offroad Wing Skate Board
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
obxDave
February 21, 2020, 11:44:45 PM
topic Bump Cap - less kooky foil head protection
[Foil SUP]
surfcowboy
February 21, 2020, 10:32:13 PM
topic A 9'8 Jimmy Lewis Destroyer as a performance longboard - It works
[Gear Talk]
BigZ
February 21, 2020, 10:06:53 PM
topic I'm Foiling and I can't get up!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
PonoBill
February 21, 2020, 09:45:32 PM
topic Step 2 Learning to use the wing. Failure!!!
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
flkiter
February 21, 2020, 09:23:29 PM
topic Greece Downwind Surfing Summer 2019
[Downwind and Racing]
bing
February 21, 2020, 08:37:16 PM
topic 9'1 Sunova Creek Pretty much new
[Classifieds]
Chest2headandglassy
February 21, 2020, 12:03:12 PM
topic Axis Foils
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
PonoBill
February 21, 2020, 10:46:54 AM
topic New ultralight foil motor for catching unbreaking waves
[Foil SUP]
SUPdad
February 21, 2020, 10:31:55 AM
topic Learning to Foil at a Cable Park
[Foil SUP]
Keys Sup
February 21, 2020, 09:32:31 AM
topic New Naish S25 Wing-Surfer
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
Quickbeam
February 21, 2020, 08:55:49 AM
topic Hi all, - could you help me fill in a quick survey about your SUP race board ?
[Downwind and Racing]
burchas
February 21, 2020, 04:53:16 AM
topic Anyone riding Naish Hokua or Mad Dog?
[Gear Talk]
tautologies
February 20, 2020, 11:03:25 PM
topic Go Foil Wings
[Classifieds]
SanoSlatchSup
February 20, 2020, 07:57:18 PM
topic Who would watch a 1 hour windwing video?
[Wingsurfing, Windfoiling, Wingfoiling, Wing SUP]
surfwingsteve
February 20, 2020, 05:46:47 PM