Author Topic: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help  (Read 3231 times)

willi

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14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« on: September 14, 2019, 01:21:10 PM »
Moving up from  12.6 to 14 and have been lusting after the Infinity Blackfish style board --so have the outline done and looking for advice on how much tali and nose rocker would be good  for choppy -
what would the bottom look like from those more experienced !!!

the rough water boards I have built have  2 3/4" tail / pretty flat in the middle and 2 1/2 in the nose and are wider 28" for the Key West event and  Florida West coast pesty chop we get .
any help / opinions would be appreciated

pics of my 12.6 attached

aloha

willi

TallDude

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2019, 09:34:39 PM »
The more rocker you add the slower the board will paddle, but the more stable it will become. The Blackfish has more rocker and is an open water design. It's typically narrower to gain back speed, but holds the width throughout the board with a wide tail for stability. Staged rockers with maybe 4  inches in the nose to flat then maybe just 1.5 in the tail. The staged rocker in the nose is not as obvious with the bulbous nose. Sharp pointed canoe type displacing noses tend to grab in the troughs and throw you sideways. The rounded bulbous noses slide more freely and are more forgiving in the chop.

tarquin

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2019, 10:19:43 PM »
What year blackfish is that. Do you find the small central fin helps.

TallDude

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2019, 11:36:24 PM »
Not my board. Just one on craigslist that I was using for an example. https://orangecounty.craigslist.org/spo/d/laguna-niguel-infinity-blackfish-custom/6973822808.html 
There are a lot of Blackfish boards around here. I've checked them out up close at Infinity's shop and my friends have them. I used to race one of the first Infinity prototype's (not a Blackfish) with a ventral fin. It was great in quartered wind, but dangerous when finishing a race in the surf. The fin I was using was too big ( 5"). I think the small ventral fins they use now probably are just right, but I haven't tried one.

tarquin

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2019, 01:07:23 AM »
Thanks. Just says custom. No year. It has a channel like the RS.
 Willi I don't have the experience to give advice but am building a 14x25 board. The advice I was giving by some on here was to keep it simple. Flat bottom etc. Look at the RS,Maliko. Good all round boards. You can find most dimensions and rocker etc on manufacturers sites.
 Are you shaping the board yourself.

willi

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2019, 07:34:05 AM »

Thank you TallDude & Tarquin for the reply --

Looking at the picture of the Blackfish you sent TallDude- even with the picture angle it looks like there is very little rocker -- even in the tail - am I seeing it correctly ?

TallDude - I am not sure I understand the term staged rocker - would you explain.

I get the 1.5" rocker in the tail --that is so the water releases --Right ?

I am planning on a flat center area on the bottom with a kicked tail -  to get the water to release --
flat area to get the board up on top of the water a bit

I see a small roundish ridge on the nose before the concave takes over on the Blackfish - am assuming that would help with
pounding / slap going upwind ???

My bottom will be flat as hand shaping a concave is challenging at best.

Hi Tarquin --- yes i am shaping the board in my florida shop

will try to send a picture later

thank you all for helping I really appreciate the input -

Peace & aloha

willi

willi

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2019, 09:06:02 AM »
Hello Tarquin & TallDude-- I need to add my apologies to Tarquin for not asking about his 14' build -- and for using such a big font -- eyes are getting bad --

Tarquin I would be very interested in what your doing -- what kind of water conditions you deal with etc.

Let me ask - what you are TallDude using to seal the blank -- I have used Fast n Fit but my last 2 boards were heavish -- so i am thinking about epoxy and cabosil sealer.

I am going to use carbon as a first layer 3K twill --would you guys put 6 oz S glass over that or 4 oz


Back to the shop

aloha

willi



tarquin

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2019, 01:53:37 PM »
I have started a thread here in the shape shack.  Hollow 14ft board. There are some helpful comments in there and should help to answer some of your questions.
 I have mainly built hollow wood or hybrid wood flax boards so cant be too helpful with the carbon etc.
 

TallDude

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2019, 02:25:08 PM »
Willi,
I always use Dap Fast and Final 'light weight' spackle.... first. Light sand after. I just use my hand sometimes with no sand paper. I apply the spackle with my hand. The spackle is a filler with some temporary sealing properties. This step is critical to fill the bigger gaps between the beads in 1 lbs foam. It's lighter than epoxy. Then I use a thin coat of Epoxy with micro balloons. The micro balloons act as a thinner to thin out the epoxy, thus making it lighter. I sand this lightly with 320 grit. The purpose of this step is to actually seal the foam with a base coat of epoxy, and to reduce the chance of de-lamination by exothermic heat during your first layer of fabric layup. Too thick of a layer of epoxy and the EPS foam below could shrink away and delam from the foam do to excessive cure temperature.
Which brings me to the next important step, 'wet tables'. If you want to really keep the weight down, you have to wet table your fabric. This gets you as close to pre-preg sheets as possible. I use some foldout tables with a piece of plywood on it and a sheet of plastic stapled over it. Roll the fabric out on the plastic, wet it out completely, and roll the fabric on to a piece of 3" plastic pipe. Then roll it back out on to the board.
One layer of 3K CF overlapping the rails ( so you get a double layer on the rails) and an extra patch in the standing area. Then one layer of 2 oz. veil as a sanding layer. You could use 4 oz because you'll be sanding through it anyway. You can paint over that with white then sand some areas off to get that cool CF rough / white camo whatever finish:) Then seal it with 2K or Concrete sealer or other products that people use. 

« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 02:56:07 PM by TallDude »

TallDude

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2019, 03:07:18 PM »
As for the stage rocker .... is just that, stages Ie: nose mid tail all different. As opposed to a continuous rocker (one perfect arc). The sharp nose helps cut the chop with wind chop specially when paddling into it, but not so good open ocean deep troughs were it grabs. My first Infinity 'RACE' board (shown below) was 16' x 32". It was their most current cutting edge race board shape at the time. There was almost no rocker, but the bottom was completely rounded. It weighed 43 lbs and paddled like a barge through anything. Side chop, any chop this thing would just smoothly roll through it. The rounded rails absorbed the chop, and the extra width kept it super stable. It was not fast, but I paddled it hundreds of miles. A lot of the narrower boards these days use a harder rail from about mid board through the wider tails which picks up the stability lost in the narrower board and adds speed. Lowering the foot-well (standing area) also adds to stability and doesn't affect the speed. Adding rocker, does add to the stability, but slows the board down. Lots of trade offs to think about...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 03:10:32 PM by TallDude »

willi

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2019, 05:57:27 PM »

Hello Tall Dude - That's great information -- I had not considered a wet out table --I guess the secret is to have the glass cut just about right and not too much resin before you roll it up.
Maybe use a  metal roller on the saturated glass >  to spread the epoxy on the  roll out table  - or even a squeegie to get extra epoxy out of the glass --
Do you put a light wet out coat on the blank first for the bond ?

I was thinking of dusting the glass and blank with spray adhesive to keep it down just around the transition area -- where the high nose comes into the standing area. Maybe thats too hokie but its how I have been doing my nose and tail for a while >.sticks good and conforms to sharp corners -- then wet it out with the glass on the rest of the board. No de-lam so far.

With the wet out table i assume you are putting the 2 oz on in the same lamination and free lap ? Not sure what 2K is but know about concrete sealer ---REALLY ;] Thats a new one - but I do believe you.

The fast n fit seal with epoxy after is great -- I have been doing one or the other -- but both makes sense - thanks for that --

So the rocker -- I get the idea of more rocker will slow the board down (and stages)-- but the tail rocker is important as it lets the water release out back --right ???

In rough chop & back wash like Key West slower is ok cause after falling  a number of times -- on a narrow  board you are toast - wide is slower but will not wear you out getting there --legs especially --(your opinion )

I can't thank you enough for all the information and your patience -- Your frequent contributions to the Zone are notable -- good job.

Willi

I am assuming you live in So-cal with the location of the Craigs list board --I lived in Laguna Beach in the 60's / Oak Street ;;]]]








tarquin

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2019, 07:06:18 PM »
I live in France and cant get spackle or find anything like it. The last foam blank I did I used an epoxy micro balloon mix first. Not to much micro balloons. Then glassed just after it had gone off. A little later than if you were hot coating. This is what the company I bought the blank of said to do. It worked well. A lot less sanding. Maybe heavier and not as smooth a finish as tall dudes method though.
 A couple of thoughts. Maybe you could glue some strips of foam back around the edge of the standing are. So it's like a recessed deck. Not open on the sides. This would stop water coming on the deck and make the board stiffer. Might add secondary stability as well. Maybe some high density foam or wood veneer in the area you are always standing. Maybe some vector net.
 If you are using a wet out table and rolling it on a tube do it quickly. Have everything ready to go. Once you roll the wet glass it will start to exotherm a lot quicker.
 You can see in the pic where I started with too much micro balloons. Added some more epoxy and it was much better.It's actually light weight filler. That's why its grey. Lighter than micro balloons I was told.
Pic too big sorry.

TallDude

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2019, 11:02:04 PM »

Hello Tall Dude - That's great information -- I had not considered a wet out table --I guess the secret is to have the glass cut just about right and not too much resin before you roll it up.
Maybe use a  metal roller on the saturated glass >  to spread the epoxy on the  roll out table  - or even a squeegie to get extra epoxy out of the glass --
Do you put a light wet out coat on the blank first for the bond ?

The wet out is pretty simple. No need to pre-cut the fabric. Use a squeegee to spread the epoxy thoroughly and wet all the fabric. When you roll the fabric onto the tube it sort of rings out the excess epoxy. All the excess is left on the plastic. When you roll it onto the board, roll a few feet and squeegee it don't as you go. It's like installing a big sticker. Don't pull it too tight because you can pull the fabric weaves apart. There will be little spots that are too dry, so just pour a little in those spots. Next trim off the extra fabric and squeegee all the down the rail and under a little. The CF has more texture than Fiberglass so it's just going dry with a slight texture. The next layer of fiberglass will fill that. No need for rollers. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 11:34:50 PM by TallDude »

TallDude

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2019, 11:28:19 PM »

So the rocker -- I get the idea of more rocker will slow the board down (and stages)-- but the tail rocker is important as it lets the water release out back --right ???

In rough chop & back wash like Key West slower is ok cause after falling  a number of times -- on a narrow  board you are toast - wide is slower but will not wear you out getting there --legs especially --(your opinion )

I can't thank you enough for all the information and your patience -- Your frequent contributions to the Zone are notable -- good job.

Willi

I am assuming you live in So-cal with the location of the Craigs list board --I lived in Laguna Beach in the 60's / Oak Street ;;]]]
Tail release is not such a big deal on a 14' board. A little V in the tail will help. I just paddled my 14' x 28" Hobie Elite this afternoon in some messed up ocean wind chop and swell. Glad I was not on my 25" wide unlimited. I would have been struggling.
Thanks for the kind words.
My grandma was a resident of LB since the early 50's. In my teens we used to follow the Harikrishna's around town dancing behind them. Then we'd go talk to the Greeter:) I now work for an architect in LB.

willi

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Re: 14' Open water rocker / bottom shape help
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2019, 04:56:05 PM »

Hello TallDude & Tarquin -- Thanks Tarquin for the heads up on the rolled wet glass -- never would have considered it  --but yea its a lot of volume of resin --I hooked up and air conditioner in my glassing room today to glass on a decending tempature -- thats right ?

I am guessin the second layer of light glass goes on right after the rolled up wet out carbon --it would seem the rolled up wet carbon would hold enough resin to wet out such a light cloth ?

I know he is so full of questions --

TallDude - could you tell me a bit about the concrete sealer -- when and what does it do  - well besides sealing - pin holes if any ?? after paint ?

I was going to order some S cloth but the lightest I can find is 6 oz -- a bit too heavy I guess -- the light glass is E glass and not as strong as S cloth -- guess its all a compromise.

Thanks for all the help.

Laguna / Mystic Arts World -- till it burned --Remembering  Corky Smith - Spider Wells - John Parlett consumate Life Guard at Oak Street - Greg Nickols - and Hobie live just north of Oak Street -- Brooks Street second reef  all just terrific memories ;]

Aloha & thanks





 


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