Author Topic: Go Foil Advise  (Read 21521 times)

supfoo

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Go Foil Advise
« on: August 27, 2019, 05:56:39 PM »
Sorry if this has been discussed.... I see people cutting Maliko tail wings down & or using Kai tail wing when looking for max lift. Am I doing myself a disservice not cutting the Maliko tail?
Can it be explained when you want to use
 1 : Kai tail
 2 : Maliko tail
 3 : Cut Maliko tail

I mainly use the IWA wing & sometimes the Maliko 200, my main setup is IWA with Maliko tail. So few waves here I really dont want to be spending time experimenting.

Thanks

PonoBill

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 09:44:29 PM »
Actually, let me add complexity. the new GL tail on any foil picks the speed up substantially and doesn't seem to have any negative effect. It feels the same with an M200 or 280 as the standard M200 tail does, but it goes faster and turns easier. My M200 tail is gathering dust in the truck.
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SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 09:46:50 PM »
I gave the Iwa/Kai combo a try a couple times, and didn't like it either time. But I'm also on an "angledfoils" so it already turns really well, and I seemed to lose drive out of the turns, and it didn't pump as well with the Kai tail. So I put the Maliko tail back on, and that was that.

It was even worse when I threw the Kai on behind the M200...less than a half dozen waves, couldn't stand it, I paddled in, and couldn't get it off the fuselage fast enough.
Me: 6'1"/200...6'0" Chelu Foil Boards...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

JEG

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 10:14:08 PM »
I'm interested in the cutting or mod the tail as I have both Kai and Maliko but maybe not as yet  :D
I'm 80kg and my goto setup is IWA with Kai tail. I didn't like the feel when I combo the IWA with Maliko tail, has too much left and scary even on 1-2ft waves, maybe I'm doing it wrong.

SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 10:55:23 PM »
I'm interested in the cutting or mod the tail as I have both Kai and Maliko but maybe not as yet  :D
I'm 80kg and my goto setup is IWA with Kai tail. I didn't like the feel when I combo the IWA with Maliko tail, has too much left and scary even on 1-2ft waves, maybe I'm doing it wrong.
Yeah, kinda sounds like it...Iwa w/ the Maliko tail is my go to setup to shoulder-head high...I'll run the Kai setup above that. I'm 84kg for comparison.
Me: 6'1"/200...6'0" Chelu Foil Boards...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

Admin

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2019, 03:13:07 AM »
Is there a specific Maliko tail wing or is it just the Iwa and the Kai tail wings?

805StandUp

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 07:19:29 AM »
Is there a specific Maliko tail wing or is it just the Iwa and the Kai tail wings?

Should be one and the same.  I am pretty sure the IWA ships with the Maliko tail wing which was so named due to it being the tail that came with the original Maliko 160.  I think Bill just sold me on the new tail... now if only they are in stock.

PonoBill

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2019, 09:50:58 AM »
I think Big Winds still has a few. They are super spendy though. I think having the ability to shim the angle is the big deal. I'm going to 3D print a bunch of shims for front and back. I don't like the washer approach, though it works. It's a bit spooky with a tail that costs more per pound than a Ferrari.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Beasho

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2019, 01:22:04 PM »
Smaller Kai Tail works great even with the big Maliko 200 front wing.

I was skeptical but then was using it all summer on the East coast.  Here I am flying, turning pumping, taking off on non-breaking waves.  Just takes getting used to.

Essentially out pitch control with our feet is TERRIBLE.   After a while you can manage the subtleties necessary to control the 'lack' of rear stabilizer.  Take the tail off entirely if you want.  The rig will still fly.  It's just SUPER pitchy.

SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2019, 03:32:33 PM »
Beahso, what do you find that it does better than using the Iwa/Maliko or M200/Maliko tail setup? I could fly it, but it was draggy and slow, and didn't turn any better than the with the bigger tail...no acceleration or "pump" IOWs was all I found with it.
Me: 6'1"/200...6'0" Chelu Foil Boards...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

jondrums

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2019, 03:54:26 PM »
I never tried the KAI tail.  The cut MALIKO tail is about halfway between the two in size.  I was personally very happy with the 420mm cut MALIKO tail combo with both the M200 and IWA.  Pitch stability is a bit more touchy - which has good and bad.  On the good side, its really easy to get it out of the water and to avoid overfoiling.  On the other hand, you have to have your feet right and react fast.

A big thing you have to understand is that the MALIKO tail creates DOWNFORCE!  That downforce is NOT lift - effectively it is like pitching moment pushing the nose up (and the tail down). The tail is negating some of the front wing lift, and on top of that creating drag.   And the worst part is that it seems to be somewhat variable with speed.  So if you take a steep drop at high speed you really have to work to keep the nose down, then when you slow down you need to shift weight to trim up the nose.  With the cut down tail, I didn't feel any of that speed sensitivity - it was much more neutral and didn't require so much work to trim the nose.

The new GL tails seem to be much more neutrally tuned - I don't think they are setup stock to produce much if any downforce.   I haven't tried the new tail with IWA or M200 because the GL wing is so fun as it is.

supfoo

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2019, 05:57:41 PM »
Beasho, thanks for responding, you are half the reason I posted this, I noticed the Kai tail in your videos.

Pono Bill, would you suggest  I go with new the wide, or narrow tail ? I guess i can get both...

Jondrums, thanks for explaining how it works.

Thanks for the help guys!  On another note, I went out this evening & had a blast, FLkiter helped me dial in my mast placement & wow, did that make a difference. Front foot strap is a Godsend, but I'm glad I learned without it. Having the proper gear is so crucial.

PonoBill

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2019, 06:51:51 AM »
I have the wide one, and it seems fine.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Beasho

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2019, 11:57:09 AM »
A big thing you have to understand is that the MALIKO tail creates DOWNFORCE!  That downforce is NOT lift - effectively it is like pitching moment pushing the nose up (and the tail down). The tail is negating some of the front wing lift, and on top of that creating drag.   And the worst part is that it seems to be somewhat variable with speed.  So if you take a steep drop at high speed you really have to work to keep the nose down, then when you slow down you need to shift weight to trim up the nose.  With the cut down tail, I didn't feel any of that speed sensitivity - it was much more neutral and didn't require so much work to trim the nose.

This is 100% TRUE. 

No-one has been able to explain WHY there is so much downforce imparted by these big Maliko tails.  I think it is a leftover from flying LONG foil SUP's with extended Noses that otherwise would never get air-borne. 

These big tails also add STABILITY which is (maybe) great for learning but not so great when you want to start breaking out the moves.

norcom

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Re: Go Foil Advise
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2019, 01:44:49 PM »
Would I get more lift out of the M200/M280 with the new 18Wide Tail instead of the Maliko tail?